[Merged]Brexit stuff

[sasguru]

Well, it sort of does, if we're going to bother arguing about it

In what terms has the control of non-EU immigration been a "real failure"? There's no benchmark for non-EU immigration, only an implausible "goal/objective/aim/desire/wish/hope" for total net immigration in the tens of thousands, which most commentators agree is ridiculous. The starting point should be an immigration system that is based on need, and one that is fair to EU and non-EU immigrants alike. As I've observed, we have roughly equivalent immigration from within the EU and from outside, yet the EU comprises less than 7% of the global population. So, as a starting point, let's control EU immigration, as that's going to be relatively straightforward when adopting similar terms to non-EU immigration. Again, I'm not suggesting we do this overnight.

And you were doing so well ...

What about Euro immigrants here already? Almost everyone sane (excludes GB9) agrees they'll be allowed to stay.
What about Euro immigrants who come between now and Brexit, which could be a few years?
What about families/dependents of the above?
Are we going to police the Irish border?
Or the Scottish border if Scotland leaves to join the Euro?
Euro people brought here on ICTs?
Euro students? (never understood why students are included on the immigrant list)

[vetran]

Interesting that all Brexit threads/conversations always come down to one subject in the end...foreigners. Makes one think doesn't it?

well it certainly seems to have affected the electorate in MerkelLand.

Bunch of racists!

[scooterscot]

well it certainly seems to have affected the electorate in MerkelLand.

Bunch of racists!

Paul Gascoigne fined £1000 after asking black security guard to 'smile because he couldn't see him' in racist remark

[vetran]

Paul Gascoigne fined £1000 after asking black security guard to 'smile because he couldn't see him' in racist remark

so you are comparing the German electorate to a sad alcoholic? Bit harsh. Maybe they are just fed up of being shafted?

[GB9]

And you were doing so well ...

What about Euro immigrants here already? Almost everyone sane (excludes GB9) agrees they'll be allowed to stay.
What about Euro immigrants who come between now and Brexit, which could be a few years?
What about families/dependents of the above?
Are we going to police the Irish border?
Or the Scottish border if Scotland leaves to join the Euro?
Euro people brought here on ICTs?
Euro students? (never understood why students are included on the immigrant list)

I'm all in favour of anyone already here being allowed to stay. My point is that when you have a President / PM of a small eastern European country saying we should be made to suffer, you are upping the ante somewhat.

[jamesbrown]

And you were doing so well ... You don't really strike me as the contracting type. A little defeatist.

What about Euro immigrants here already? Almost everyone sane (excludes GB9) agrees they'll be allowed to stay. They should be granted residency, and many will have that right already.
What about Euro immigrants who come between now and Brexit, which could be a few years? We should announce a cut-off date, beyond which there is no automatic right to residency.
What about families/dependents of the above? That applies to non-EU immigration too. What's your Brexit-related point here?
Are we going to police the Irish border? Why? Do you understand the difference between legal and illegal immigration? Why would an illegal immigrant travel via Ireland vs. using a travel visa?
Or the Scottish border if Scotland leaves to join the Euro? As above.
Euro people brought here on ICTs? What about them? Care to reframe this word collage as an actual question?
Euro students? (never understood why students are included on the immigrant list) Agreed, they shouldn't be included, but their departure should be properly policed.

See above. Again, I note that you continue to avoid any direct questions about your opinions. I'll assume that your informed opinions are pending, beyond "Brexit is bad"

[vetran]

I'm all in favour of anyone already here being allowed to stay. My point is that when you have a President / PM of a small eastern European country saying we should be made to suffer, you are upping the ante somewhat.

the EU = our bitter Ex, wait till they put paint stripper on the car and cut up our clothes.

[sasguru]

See above. Again, I note that you continue to avoid any direct questions about your opinions. I'll assume that your informed opinions are pending, beyond "Brexit is bad"

My opinions are on record.
I personally think that free movement within the EU is a good thing. After all we had only a 5% unemployment rate, which is what most economists call full employment.
But whatever you think about immigration, the ""Brexit is bad" belief regarding the long-term economy is a valid one.
My belief is that the UK economy is too weak and unbalanced for hard Brexit to be a success.
As I've said I may be wrong, but it's not going to affect me particularly, so I will be watching with interest, for the entertainment value

[jamesbrown]

My opinions are on record.
I personally think that free movement within the EU is a good thing. After all we had only a 5% unemployment rate, which is what most economists call full employment.
But whatever you think about immigration, the ""Brexit is bad" belief regarding the long-term economy is a valid one.
My belief is that the UK economy is too weak and unbalanced for hard Brexit to be a success.
As I've said I may be wrong, but it's not going to affect me particularly, so I will be watching with interest, for the entertainment value

As are mine (including on concrete issues, such as residency rights), but this is a message board, afterall, and not a search engine.

Employment indicators don't have the same value they once had, or at least the headline numbers. This applies across many advanced economies where similar demographic and social changes are taking place. Low headline employment has essentially been traded, to some degree, for increased flexibility (often undesired flexibility from the POV of workers), reduced productivity, and compressed wages. Immigration has been a contributing factor, although not the most important one (that being the financial crisis and the aggressive monetary activism pursued thereafter, which has allowed governments to defer the needed structural and fiscal reforms). Many of the other contributing factors have been exacerbated by the EU institutions, and the worst consequences of migration have hardly been within the UK.

When Bremoaners talk about the UK wanting its cake and eating it, it's worth remembering that the EU seeks all of the advantages of a fully functioning single market without any of the political consequences of a fiscal union. It's not the UK economy that's weak, per se, but most advanced economies and many emerging ones, and the EU is too weak and unbalanced (half finished, and with a politically unpalatable destination) to make our ongoing membership a success.

[sasguru]

As are mine (including on concrete issues, such as residency rights), but this is a message board, afterall, and not a search engine.

Employment indicators don't have the same value they once had, or at least the headline numbers. This applies across many advanced economies where similar demographic and social changes are taking place. Low headline employment has essentially been traded, to some degree, for increased flexibility (often undesired flexibility from the POV of workers), reduced productivity, and compressed wages. Immigration has been a contributing factor, although not the most important one (that being the financial crisis and the aggressive monetary activism pursued thereafter, which has allowed governments to defer the needed structural and fiscal reforms). Many of the other contributing factors have been exacerbated by the EU institutions, and the worst consequences of migration have hardly been within the UK.

When Bremoaners talk about the UK wanting its cake and eating it, it's worth remembering that the EU seeks all of the advantages of a fully functioning single market without any of the political consequences of a fiscal union. It's not the UK economy that's weak, per se, but most advanced economies and many emerging ones, and the EU is too weak and unbalanced (half finished, and with a politically unpalatable destination) to make our ongoing membership a success.

Oh that's OK, we'll be alright then. Hurrah!