Gaza blockaded

[vetran]

I'm not entirely convinced this blockade is a good idea.

What is the alternative? turning the other cheek seems to have cost them.

[vetran]

seems relevant

[malvolio]

The problem Israel has is that Hamas have used civilians buildings as a way to protect their activities. Rockets have been fired from school rooftops, for example, and their military and their hostages are housed in the same buildings as civilian residents. There is no way Israel can attack Hamas without also attacking the civilian population. Telling them to move away from the danger areas is a sensible thing to do, but they can't afford to wait for it to happen. It's not like Israel doesn't have a very clear idea of where they need to attack.

Equally they have been very clear that the blockade stops when the hostages are returned.

You have to sympathise with the civilian Palestinians, but it is only Hamas that is to blame for the current impossible situation.

[JustKeepSwimming]

The problem Israel has is that Hamas have used civilians buildings as a way to protect their activities. Rockets have been fired from school rooftops, for example, and their military and their hostages are housed in the same buildings as civilian residents. There is no way Israel can attack Hamas without also attacking the civilian population. Telling them to move away from the danger areas is a sensible thing to do, but they can't afford to wait for it to happen. It's not like Israel doesn't have a very clear idea of where they need to attack.

Equally they have been very clear that the blockade stops when the hostages are returned.

You have to sympathise with the civilian Palestinians, but it is only Hamas that is to blame for the current impossible situation.

They can't move away from the danger area because Hamas won't let them. They have already been telling them to stay, that Israel is trying to get them out into the open to kill them all.

[malvolio]

They can't move away from the danger area because Hamas won't let them. They have already been telling them to stay, that Israel is trying to get them out into the open to kill them all.

And your point is?

To put it bluntly, Israel says move aside or risk being killed when we attack Hamas. Hamas say stay put and risk being killed when Israel attacks us, by claiming that Israel wants to kill Palestinians. They don't, they want to kill Hamas.

But which side is aiming to prepare - or perhaps reinforce is a better term - a human shield from the civilian population?

[vetran]

They can't move away from the danger area because Hamas won't let them. They have already been telling them to stay, that Israel is trying to get them out into the open to kill them all.

a fairly balanced commentary here.
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Midd...raid-on-Israel

Hamas say no going back, Israel are not going to come to the table if Hamas don't or until Hamas' teeth have been pulled.

What does Israel do? The obvious choice is to remove the thorn in its side.

Other countries have also attacked Israel and I can't see the Israelis ignoring that.

[malvolio]

a fairly balanced commentary here.
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Midd...raid-on-Israel

Hamas say no going back, Israel are not going to come to the table if Hamas don't or until Hamas' teeth have been pulled.

What does Israel do? The obvious choice is to remove the thorn in its side.

Other countries have also attacked Israel and I can't see the Israelis ignoring that.

Moderately balanced, perhaps. However, one quote is telling;

But Hamas spokesperson Ibrahim Hamad also told Al Jazeera TV on Sunday that the attack was “absolutely a message” to Muslim countries seeking normalization with Israel.

Those discussions started a while ago, and there are mutterings that they were the trigger for the recent, carefully planned attack on Israel. With that level of intransigence, there is no point in pretending Hamas are a working government seeking justice. The original Oslo accord is concerned with Palestinians, and is in large part hampered by Hamas's and Hezbollah's declared intentions regarding Israel and their successful propaganda war to support it.

This immediate issue is with Hamas, it should not be conflated with the overall, admittedly serious Palestinian problem..

[NotAllThere]

Hamas say stay put and risk being killed when Israel attacks us, by claiming that Israel wants to kill Palestinians. They don't, they want to kill Hamas.

But which side is aiming to prepare - or perhaps reinforce is a better term - a human shield from the civilian population?

Knowing Hamas behaviour, it's more like "Hamas say stay put or we'll kill you". They do have form for that kind of thing.

Hamas is one of the richest terrorist organisations in the world. It has enriched itself from the suffering of their own people (and Israelis as well, of course). Ismail Haniyeh, the leader, is a billionaire. Hamas is not just a terrorist organisation, it's a criminal one as well.

[JustKeepSwimming]

Knowing Hamas behaviour, it's more like "Hamas say stay put or we'll kill you". They do have form for that kind of thing.

Hamas is one of the richest terrorist organisations in the world. It has enriched itself from the suffering of their own people (and Israelis as well, of course). Ismail Haniyeh, the leader, is a billionaire. Hamas is not just a terrorist organisation, it's a criminal one as well.

I think we like the comfort of thinking everyday Palestinians just want a peaceful life. The Nazis had about 10 years to radicalise large percentage of Germans. Hamas and friends have had far longer, the majority of people in gaza have only known Hamas rule and Hamas indoctrination.

Even if every hamas member died tomorrow it would still take decades to deradicalise, if it was even possible given the dynamics.

It took the Western world, with total control of W.Germany, decades to denazify the population.

[lecyclist]

The Nazis had about 10 years to radicalise large percentage of Germans. Hamas and friends have had far longer, the majority of people in gaza have only known Hamas rule and Hamas indoctrination.

Saying the "Palestinians civilians are nazis" is not a good look, when the IDF is killing them as we speak. At best this shows a complete lack of education and empathy, at worst it makes you an apologist for genocide against a civilian group. Even Biden has said : “We can’t lose sight of the fact that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians had nothing to do with Hamas.”

Being smart in one field does not mean you are resistant to the constant messaging in the western media, especially one that denies Palestinian voices or their stories to be told. We are all being played in one way or another by the media, and I was equally horrified by the story that began with an IDF soldier telling a CNN reporter that babies had been beheaded: that reporter, Sara Sidner, has now apologised and confirmed the story was unverified. There was every reason to be suspicious of the hyperbole: a single IDF source, an Israeli news channel with connections to Netanyahu leading the story. Yet the damage has been done, and the western public has been fired up baying for Palestinian civilian blood.

Imagine the barrier for entry for an Israeli war-crime against Palestinians to make headline news - imagine the evidence and corroboration demanded of reporters, the editorial pushback, the accusations of anti-semitism that will need to be countered. Genocide crosses that threshold. It will not be covered up, explained away, justified in any shape or form. And to use the language of hate in this public forum that condones genocide may also cross the threshold for what constitutes hate speech against ethnic/ religious / racial groups in the UK.

We are all vulnerable to media bias, but you can easily search for articles that describe everyday life in peacetime Gaza, and then ask yourself, what would you be prepared to do if born into an occupied territory described in 2021 as "Hell on earth" by António Guterres, Secretary-general of the UN?

Search for the number of Palestinian amputees in Gaza (the IDF speciality is to shoot civilians in the legs, sometimes using ammo that explodes on impact and rips through tissue and bone). You could also learn more by searching for "How Israel created a generation on crutches in Gaza". There are also articles by Marie-Elisabeth Ingres, Doctors Without Borders, who is quoted as saying "When you have almost 90 percent of the people injured in the lower limb, it means that there is a policy to target the lower limbs". Did you know that - perhaps not, those reports do not make it into the western media. Check the reports of journalists wearing clearly marked vests, who have been killed or shot in the legs by snipers using telescopic sights. A quick search of "reuters journalist killed gaza" will return many links for journalists and photographers, in marked vehicles or vests, being executed or maimed by the Israeli military. Were you aware of those incidents? Perhaps it made a brief segment in the news, initially denied by IDF spokespeople before being confirmed many months later. Are you not surprised that no one in the IDF was ever held responsible? That is how media bias suppresses voices of one group and amplifies others.

Search for Palestinian photographer Nasser Ishtayeh who has been shot 11 times covering events in Gaza. He explains the tactics the IDF use against journalists. "If they want to attack journalists, they sometimes shoot at walls or at potholes so we get hit by the ricochet." Again, you probably didn't know this, because it never makes the western news.

Israeli demands that 1.1 million people move from one area to another has been described as ethnic cleansing, and has been condemned by the UN also.

Conservative MP Crispin Blunt has warned his own government it “could be” complicit in Israel’s war crimes in Gaza. "Could be" is code for "will be".

Conflating unarmed civilians in Gaza with Hamas is Israel's way to justify the genocide that follows. Of course peace is difficult, perhaps even impossible except in the long term. Yes Israel has an impossible task, that is made even harder due to Netanyahu's low domestic popularity: the only way he can save his political skin is to play the strongman role. But to say that genocide is the only solution because politicians lack the will or imagination is not the solution.