[Merged]Brexit stuff

[stek]

'All others, your nationality is by descent' - just for clarification, does that mean that if I someone British had children in Canada and then they subsequently had children in Canada, those children would not be Canadian but still British? I'm not doubting your answer, just clarifying my understanding.

A child born abroad to a British parent is automatically British; 'British by descent'. They cannot pass their British Nationality to their children unless they return to live in UK and and then they can register their children as British.

Children cannot naturalise as British, only register (same thing essentially).

Children born in UK to a British parent are British 'otherwise than by descent' and obvs can pass their nationality on.

[DodgyAgent]

This not the case.

You're British if one of your parents is British, or you were born to parents settled in Britain (that means either IDLR or EU citizenship, resident in the UK for 10 (IDLR) or 5 (EU) or more years). Simply being born in Britain isn't sufficient. If a child is born abroad to British parents, it's important to get that child registered as a British citizen, otherwise their children will not be able to claim British citizenship.

In Europe, only Ireland, France and Germany have similarly restricted conferring of citizenship to people born their. All others, your nationality is by descent, and is the most common law worldwide.

My own view is that you're English if you were born and raised in England, and are British. If you weren't born in England/Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland, but have acquired British citizenship, then you're just British. As far as I can tell, under law, there is no concept of English etc. nationality. But I'll be happy to be corrected.

We like our rules don't we?

[GB9]

A child born abroad to a British parent is automatically British; 'British by descent'. They cannot pass their British Nationality to their children unless they return to live in UK and and then they can register their children as British.

Children cannot naturalise as British, only register (same thing essentially).

Children born in UK to a British parent are British 'otherwise than by descent' and obvs can pass their nationality on.

It was more the comment about other countries being by descent. Put another way, could the family of a non-Canadian but born in Canada ever become Canadian purely by being born in Canada?

[stek]

It was more the comment about other countries being by descent. Put another way, could the family of a non-Canadian but born in Canada ever become Canadian purely by being born in Canada?

Most countries award citizenship based on 'jus sanguinis' - namely based on the nationality of the parents(s), a few go the other way (jus soli) where it's award based on the country in which you where born. USA does that, most of the others are smaller 'ie crap!' countries!

So it depends on the individual laws of the state but almost all of the 'desirable' ones grant it by decent. As I said, USA doesn't, hence still shiitloads of people try and get there on visit visas while pregnant, give birth there to what is a US citizen and start the human rights shiit to remain...

As far as I know in the case of Canada it's like UK, being born here doesn't automatically give you or the parents the right to live here.

11 years on immigration boards paying off! This is all from memory not google so I could have some bits wrong but I think it's basically accurate.

[NotAllThere]

'All others, your nationality is by descent' - just for clarification, does that mean that if I someone British had children in Canada and then they subsequently had children in Canada, those children would not be Canadian but still British? I'm not doubting your answer, just clarifying my understanding.

The "all others" was, in context, "all other European countries".

In Switzerland, citizenship is either by naturalisation (after a qualifying period and a vote from your local community), or by virtue of being born to a Swiss parent. If one of my children marries a non-Swiss, then my grandchildren through them will be British.

For my great-grandchildren, it gets complicated. (Follow what stek says above). If my children and their children were so utterly stupid to have never applied for Swiss citizenship (or something barred them from applying), then my grandchildren would still not be Swiss automatically. In that case, there is a provision under UK law for them exceptionally be granted British citizenship, on the grounds that otherwise they'd be stateless - and a principle of international law is that no person should ever be stateless (insofar as it can be avoided - a refugee, for example, might be stateless). There is also provision under Swiss law for them to be naturalised with only five years residence (so long as they're integrated into the country).

TL;DR My children are British otherwise than descent (born in Britain to British parents). My grandchildren will be British by descent. Unless my grandkids take up residency in the UK, chances are my great-grandchildren may not be British.

[stek]

The "all others" was, in context, "all other European countries".

In Switzerland, citizenship is either by naturalisation (after a qualifying period and a vote from your local community), or by virtue of being born to a Swiss parent. If one of my children marries a non-Swiss, then my grandchildren through them will be British.

For my great-grandchildren, it gets complicated. (Follow what stek says above). If my children and their children were so utterly stupid to have never applied for Swiss citizenship (or something barred them from applying), then my grandchildren would still not be Swiss automatically. In that case, there is a provision under UK law for them exceptionally be granted British citizenship, on the grounds that otherwise they'd be stateless - and a principle of international law is that no person should ever be stateless (insofar as it can be avoided - a refugee, for example, might be stateless). There is also provision under Swiss law for them to be naturalised with only five years residence (so long as they're integrated into the country).

TL;DR My children are British otherwise than descent (born in Britain to British parents). My grandchildren will be British by descent. Unless my grandkids take up residency in the UK, chances are my great-grandchildren may not be British.

Added to that bit bolded, we used to see a lot BNO's (British Nationals Overseas) giving up their other nationality (BNO in itself is pretty useless, no right to live in UK), and thereby making themselves stateless in which case the UK just says fark off...

British Nationality (and the notion and legal aspects of nationality in general) is very interesting, for UK alone there was/were British Subjects, British Nationals Overseas, Citizens of UK Colonies, British Overseas Territories Citizens, British Overseas Citizens, and British Protected Persons all with various claims, weak and strong for citizenship and ROA (Right of Abode) in UK itself based on Britain's colonial past.

All very complex and with very few real experts, and will only get even more complex with Brexit and the rights of EU citizens in UK, and UK citizens in EU. It's something I wanted to get into and I have a Law degree, but I can't cos I've not served my time as an underpaid articled clerk for a Law firm, closedshop.com

[stek]

Also it's worth mentioning that until 1948 British Subjects (ie anyone from the Colonies, still largely intact then but we couldn't afford to run it after WW2) could just turn up to UK and just live there perm. no visa, none of that shiite. There are still a lot of 'foreigners' here who entered the UK on that basis who have no real proof of their right to remain.

The decline of the Empire and the colonies wish to free themselves from the British yoke led to the them introducing their own nationalities usually 'converting' British Subjects to local nationals automatically without asking them, ISTR Jamaica a case in point, people went to bed British, woke up Jamaican. Bit like the 1972 county boundary changes, I went to bed a Lancastrian, woke up a Greater Mancunian....

Similar things will happen after Brexit, since EU rights to remain are derived automatically, DCPR cards are advisable to affirm those rights, not everyone bothers and EU law says there is no legal requirement to have/carry this card anyway. No 'visa' is required, visa is the wrong wrong since its not a visa. So, lots of Europeans and non-Europeans under Surinder Singh ruling in UK after Brexit with no real proof of their rights. Good luck with that.

[DodgyAgent]

Also it's worth mentioning that until 1948 British Subjects (ie anyone from the Colonies, still largely intact then but we couldn't afford to run it after WW2) could just turn up to UK and just live there perm. no visa, none of that shiite. There are still a lot of 'foreigners' here who entered the UK on that basis who have no real proof of their right to remain.

The decline of the Empire and the colonies wish to free themselves from the British yoke led to the them introducing their own nationalities usually 'converting' British Subjects to local nationals automatically without asking them, ISTR Jamaica a case in point, people went to bed British, woke up Jamaican. Bit like the 1972 county boundary changes, I went to bed a Lancastrian, woke up a Greater Mancunian....

Similar things will happen after Brexit, since EU rights to remain are derived automatically, DCPR cards are advisable to affirm those rights, not everyone bothers and EU law says there is no legal requirement to have/carry this card anyway. No 'visa' is required, visa is the wrong wrong since its not a visa. So, lots of Europeans and non-Europeans under Surinder Singh ruling in UK after Brexit with no real proof of their rights. Good luck with that.

perhaps we will think twice next time before jumping into agreeing EU treaties

[NotAllThere]

perhaps we will think twice next time before jumping into agreeing EU treaties

Doubt it. Cameron didn't think twice about putting Brexit to a referendum which turned out to be political suicide. May did think twice about Hinckley point, but went ahead anyway. It seems the propensity of politicians to do stupid things hasn't decreased.

[GB9]

Where's Guy Fawkes when you need him? Although he did botch the job.