Reply to: EV's and what's your driveway look like?

[eek]

Not in winter, especially keeping warm while stuck in traffic multiply by two.

Does it matter when that part of your household electricity bill can be paid for by the company

[Paddy]

6.66p per mile? On Intelligent Octopus its 7.5p kwh and that works out at about 2.5p a mile. plus the company can pay for all that electricity...

Not in winter, especially keeping warm while stuck in traffic multiply by two.

[eek]

Sadly, a Taycan is a bit out of my budget....

For the Model Y, 15k miles - £1307 + 47 x £436.07 + VAT.

By my man maths, £21,802.29 + VAT, or £26,162.75 including VAT. An outrageous sum of money to rent a car for 4 years, no matter how trendy it is at the school gates.

However

A bit of man-maths, and I could just around £20k of that is offset:

£2,180.22 reclaimable (half VAT back)
£5,995.63 offset against corporation tax at 25% as a business expense.
£1k (£250/year) offset against corporation tax for tyres and insurance.
£720 (£180/year) offset against current ICE vehicle road tax.
£2,000/year offset against fuel bill savings (assuming 20p/mile in ICE v 6.66p for electric, which is generous given all our charging done at home).
£2000 maintenance/servicing costs (optimistic)


All of a sudden, the £25k-odd is looking closer to £5k, for 60k miles and 4 years of motoring.

Crazy maths, or some logic in my thinking? I'd stress at this point, I really don't want a Tesla, or an EV, the real motivation behind this is to sell current ICE, move the bulk of our family motoring costs into the business and open the door to a weekend car (I love my old Japanese classics, Scoobies, Evos etc...).

6.66p per mile? On Intelligent Octopus its 7.5p kwh and that works out at about 2.5p a mile. plus the company can pay for all that electricity...

[fiisch]

Sadly, a Taycan is a bit out of my budget....

For the Model Y, 15k miles - £1307 + 47 x £436.07 + VAT.

By my man maths, £21,802.29 + VAT, or £26,162.75 including VAT. An outrageous sum of money to rent a car for 4 years, no matter how trendy it is at the school gates.

However

A bit of man-maths, and I could just around £20k of that is offset:

£2,180.22 reclaimable (half VAT back)
£5,995.63 offset against corporation tax at 25% as a business expense.
£1k (£250/year) offset against corporation tax for tyres and insurance.
£720 (£180/year) offset against current ICE vehicle road tax.
£2,000/year offset against fuel bill savings (assuming 20p/mile in ICE v 6.66p for electric, which is generous given all our charging done at home).
£2000 maintenance/servicing costs (optimistic)


All of a sudden, the £25k-odd is looking closer to £5k, for 60k miles and 4 years of motoring.

Crazy maths, or some logic in my thinking? I'd stress at this point, I really don't want a Tesla, or an EV, the real motivation behind this is to sell current ICE, move the bulk of our family motoring costs into the business and open the door to a weekend car (I love my old Japanese classics, Scoobies, Evos etc...).

[agentzero]

I agree with the concerns about recycling. If you read up about battery technologies, the batteries in service since 2018 can be easily dismantled and the chemicals reused. There's also so much research into alternatives to lithium and other elements that the way batteries are built is changing and will change and develop further.

Salt is being used. If they crack that, they are on to a winner and it will drive decreasing costs for EV batteries.

Look at all this as placing a bet. Do you place money on the dirty industries winning or the cleaner lower emissions industry winning? Overall EVs built today are much lower emissions throughout their life, a life which is much longer than an ICE vehicle. Technology only improves and refines, so what you see today of EVs will only be less environmentally damaging in the future.

Betting with ICE vehicles now would be like betting in favour of coal power stations making a comeback. We all know what direction the world is heading. I like accumulating money, not losing it. Go take a test drive in a Taycan and then get back to us here.

[Snooky]

Utter bollox

I'm impressed by the way you carefully dismantled each of agentzero's assertions by showing where they were wrong and offering your own alternative evidence. You've certainly convinced me!

[FIERCE TANK BATTLE]

Utter bollox

Seems like you're not coping well with EVs being the new future.

[Paddy]

Some things to consider:

• New = expensive. EVs, despite the misinformation around, don't have batteries that suddenly degrade within a few years and need replacing. They last a long time, see any Prius driving around. The technology is impressive. Second hand is the way to go for EVs now. One day EVs new will be much cheaper than fossil fuel cars new. There is just no way fossil fuel cars will win this battle and they shouldn't really, we're just used to them from them being the only option in the past and secondhand being cheap in comparison to EVs.
• The technology today isn't the technology available next year. We aren't at the tipping point yet but soon will be, in which it will make more sense to buy an EV over petrol or diesel.
• Charging stations are only going to increase. There's talk of a government scheme to consolidate the identity process for charging but keep all the providers. This will make it easier to charge, without having 60 cards in your wallet.
• Taxes: there is no way that you are going to see petrol and diesel remain the low price of today. If you are splashing out on an expensive petrol or diesel car today, it's going to be even more of a money pit than cars of the past.
• Try a Porsche Taycan and stamp on the accelerator. It is unbelievable. As soon as I drove one I knew it was the future. The peace and quiet inside is almost relaxing. Driving is changing and it's on the horizon.

A lot of people are buying cars without considering that within a couple of years the resale value will plummet and the cost of servicing and filling them up will increase a lot. Everybody knows this is going to happen but because it hasn't happened there's a denial in the air.

I'm no environmentalist, but it is obvious that people are not moving because of money and charging infrastructure worries. If EVs are cheaper to buy and run than petrol and diesel cars and the charging solutions are resolved then with subsidies for EVs, to get the market to the tipping point and scale required, with increasing taxes on fossil fuel cars and vehicles, then it is a one way bet for EVs, against petrol and diesel.

The Conservatives have blocked and cancelled a lot of projects and changes, but they are not known as progressives in this space. Separately, for most of us the issue is range. If normal car companies bring out, as expected soon, EVs with 800KM to 1200KM and above range within 3 years, then it is obvious most of us here will be choosing EVs. Those willing to sink money into the past will do so, but if this was IT it would be like sinking all bets into a dying technology that's being phased out. Works short term, long term it's a losing game.

Utter bollox

[northernladuk]

I'm no environmentalist, but it is obvious that people are not moving because of money and charging infrastructure worries. If EVs are cheaper to buy and run than petrol and diesel cars and the charging solutions are resolved then with subsidies for EVs, to get the market to the tipping point and scale required, with increasing taxes on fossil fuel cars and vehicles, then it is a one way bet for EVs, against petrol and diesel.

But, and IMO, battery recycling is going to be the next environmental disaster in a few decades. There is going to have to be a lot of money spent on recycling and disposal of them and they only way to make sure that happens is tax. And also they gov won't pass up on the chance to tax something else to make up the shortfall on fuels.

I don't think EV's are the environmental answer converts think they are and they most certainly aren't off the tax radar. Both longer term things but you mention things coming and people being in denial. This is exactly that.

[agentzero]

Some things to consider:

• New = expensive. EVs, despite the misinformation around, don't have batteries that suddenly degrade within a few years and need replacing. They last a long time, see any Prius driving around. The technology is impressive. Second hand is the way to go for EVs now. One day EVs new will be much cheaper than fossil fuel cars new. There is just no way fossil fuel cars will win this battle and they shouldn't really, we're just used to them from them being the only option in the past and secondhand being cheap in comparison to EVs.
• The technology today isn't the technology available next year. We aren't at the tipping point yet but soon will be, in which it will make more sense to buy an EV over petrol or diesel.
• Charging stations are only going to increase. There's talk of a government scheme to consolidate the identity process for charging but keep all the providers. This will make it easier to charge, without having 60 cards in your wallet.
• Taxes: there is no way that you are going to see petrol and diesel remain the low price of today. If you are splashing out on an expensive petrol or diesel car today, it's going to be even more of a money pit than cars of the past.
• Try a Porsche Taycan and stamp on the accelerator. It is unbelievable. As soon as I drove one I knew it was the future. The peace and quiet inside is almost relaxing. Driving is changing and it's on the horizon.

A lot of people are buying cars without considering that within a couple of years the resale value will plummet and the cost of servicing and filling them up will increase a lot. Everybody knows this is going to happen but because it hasn't happened there's a denial in the air.

I'm no environmentalist, but it is obvious that people are not moving because of money and charging infrastructure worries. If EVs are cheaper to buy and run than petrol and diesel cars and the charging solutions are resolved then with subsidies for EVs, to get the market to the tipping point and scale required, with increasing taxes on fossil fuel cars and vehicles, then it is a one way bet for EVs, against petrol and diesel.

The Conservatives have blocked and cancelled a lot of projects and changes, but they are not known as progressives in this space. Separately, for most of us the issue is range. If normal car companies bring out, as expected soon, EVs with 800KM to 1200KM and above range within 3 years, then it is obvious most of us here will be choosing EVs. Those willing to sink money into the past will do so, but if this was IT it would be like sinking all bets into a dying technology that's being phased out. Works short term, long term it's a losing game.

[northernladuk]

My lease on a noddy ev is almost up, was a super cheap compliance car deal (£2500 up front then £159/mo) but the car's range makes me weep and I've started doing a lot more long journeys.

Can't get a straight answer on my company purchasing a tesla model 3 being good or not. Save some money but then if they hike BIK you're completely screwed because it's on the list price not the value of the car, so that could knacker any savings. And leasing a tesla is crazy money, I'd rather pay to own I think.

I think the answer was if you want a tesla then buying it through the company is a cheaper way of doing it using the benefits that are 'currently' available for EV's.
If you wouldn't normally get a tesla but think it's worthwhile doing it through the company then the answer is no.

Bottom line is it is an expensive car. Putting it through the company doesn't offset it enough against personal ownership of other similar vehicles so a no go on getting a car cheaper. If you are desperate for a tesla then it's the cheapest way to get it.

Make sense?

But ask your accountant

[FIERCE TANK BATTLE]

My lease on a noddy ev is almost up, was a super cheap compliance car deal (£2500 up front then £159/mo) but the car's range makes me weep and I've started doing a lot more long journeys.

Can't get a straight answer on my company purchasing a tesla model 3 being good or not. Save some money but then if they hike BIK you're completely screwed because it's on the list price not the value of the car, so that could knacker any savings. And leasing a tesla is crazy money, I'd rather pay to own I think.

[DoctorStrangelove]

https://electrek.co/2021/04/23/remem...y%20in%20Spain.

.

I'm waiting for the electrick BMW Isetta.

Oh.

Alright then:

https://microlino-car.com/en/microlino

https://www.theautopian.com/the-micr...%20be%20better.

[Zigenare]

Alfas used to have a bad rep for reliability. Are they better these days?

Years ago I had a 164 Cloverleaf - I loved that car. The only problem I had with it was that people kept stealing the boot badge, cost me a bloody fortune in replacements!

[ShandyDrinker]

I've gone all in on EVs although haven't taken the predictable should have bought a Tesla approach that many EV evangelists drone on about. I think the cost of EVs is outrageous hence buying second hand. Towards the end of last year there were some crazy deals around, particularly with companies such as Onto (a subscription service) going into administration, hence the market being flooded with sub 1 year old decent Renault Zoe models for very competitive prices, many still with over 4 years of warranty remaining.

Likewise we've got a Hyundai Kona, which is a decent enough car, although not necessarily as good as the original Kia e-Niro. Again, it was a cheap car relatively speaking, sub 20k for an 18 month old model (with the balance of the 5 year warranty remaining). No way I'd have got a Tesla for that price.

EVs are only sensible if you can do home charging though. With the Intelligent Octopus Go tariff overnight electricity is 7.5p per kWh so charging the Kona up to it's max of 64kWh is £4.80, with a range of just shy of 300 miles. Even during the cold snap it's around 260 miles. The Zoe isn't as good but still has a useable capacity of 52kWh.

To put it into perspective, if I go back into London a couple of days a week, it'll cost me approx £5 per week for electric and then parking (Westfield Shepherd's Bush) at £8 per day and whatever tube costs are, say £8.50 per day into the city. So per week from Swindon to London at 2 days in the office it'd be £38. On the train from Swindon I'd be looking at ~£800 for a flexi season ticket for a month and ~£1k for a full season ticket. However, if I had to do more than 2 days a week into London I'd do the season ticket and suck it up. Commuting more than 2 days a week by car is brutal as the return trip for me is 4-5 hours, depending on traffic.

Tax is currently zero (and will still be relatively cheap come Jan 2025), servicing cheaper than petrol/diesel/hybrid and insurance are all cheaper than the petrol/hybrid cars we had previously.

What I'd also say is that if you've got solar panels, battery storage and a heat pump (don't believe everything you read in the Torygraph and Daily Wail, nor the green evangelism in the Guardian), you can also make significant savings, but that's a topic for another thread.

I'm not an environmental lunatic, and have done all of the above primarily to save money in the longer term. If it helps the planet in the process then great. As someone who used to race motorbikes (badly), I'd still consider myself a petrol head. However, for the child in me, there's something very satisfying about smoking some twunt in a BMW 3 series from a set of traffic lights in an EV.