Reply to: Interview question - business wanting something stupid

[d000hg]

Spin the work out so long they decide it's too expensive and give up. Everyone wins.

[NigelJK]

Alan Turing & Alexander "Alastair" Guthrie Denniston

That was actually Dr R V Jones. Our own NickFitz put me on to his excellent 'Most Secret War'. Many more examples of this kind of thing in it.

[vetran]

The thing is, how do you know that it is stupid? You, as a lowly contractor, don't have the big picture - it might actually make sense to do it that way.

An example of this, is the following: In WW2, an RAF squadron Commander was ordered to send a pilot up, alone, in a Hurricane, fly over a particular point on the Normandy coast, and return home. Every day at 12 noon for a month. Crazy, thought the commander. But he still did it, despite his pilot nearly getting shot down by anti aircraft batteries every time.

It was only many years afterwards that he found out the purpose of this exercise. It is that we had found the German radio operator in that location always sent a message to his commander over the Enigma radio system every time an allied plane flew over.
So we made sure that we had a plane fly over, every day, at the same time, keeping all other allied aircraft away, knowing that the message he would be sending each time would be the same. It allowed us to validate that the daily encryption codes we had broken for that day, were correct.

I don't think most bosses are up there with Alan Turing & Alexander "Alastair" Guthrie Denniston. It is surprising how often I have to point the bend in the middle of my right arm and explain "that is an elbow".

[RetSet]

Mrs Eek mentioned this court case last week Magistrates issue fine over tree felling .

It was only a sycamore FFS. Just a big weed

[DaveB]

Point out the flaws in the plan and where it may be contrary to policy / best practice.
Highlight the associated risks and the impact should those risks be realized.
Ask them to confirm in writing that they want you to do it anyway.
Invoice.

[vwdan]

Nope there is a big difference between knowledge (you should have known) and an additional task (you needed to have checked).

In IT it's the difference between being asked to wipe a secretary's laptop and accepting the blame for no-one being paid on the discovery that the laptop contained the only copy of the FD's password for the company's bank account.

Okay, I'm not really sure what you're on about now if I'm entirely truthful. You brought up a legal case, initially, but now you seem to be backing away from the legal argument.

[eek]

What I said, isn't it?

Nope there is a big difference between knowledge (you should have known) and an additional task (you needed to have checked).

In IT it's the difference between being asked to wipe a secretary's laptop and accepting the blame for no-one being paid on the discovery that the laptop contained the only copy of the FD's password for the company's bank account.

[xoggoth]

Shouldn't sexual equality embrace the idea that women should make their own decisions?

[Zigenare]

"The chances are that the SME will have more domain specific knowledge than myself so I would seek clarity and implement if required."

[GJABS]

I had an interview with IT in a financial institution.

The question was what would you do if senior management from business wanted something done that was stupid.

The thing is, how do you know that it is stupid? You, as a lowly contractor, don't have the big picture - it might actually make sense to do it that way.

An example of this, is the following: In WW2, an RAF squadron Commander was ordered to send a pilot up, alone, in a Hurricane, fly over a particular point on the Normandy coast, and return home. Every day at 12 noon for a month. Crazy, thought the commander. But he still did it, despite his pilot nearly getting shot down by anti aircraft batteries every time.

It was only many years afterwards that he found out the purpose of this exercise. It is that we had found the German radio operator in that location always sent a message to his commander over the Enigma radio system every time an allied plane flew over.
So we made sure that we had a plane fly over, every day, at the same time, keeping all other allied aircraft away, knowing that the message he would be sending each time would be the same. It allowed us to validate that the daily encryption codes we had broken for that day, were correct.

[anonymouse]

How does the IT know the request was stupid?

Typical IT think they know best, the business wants what the business wants. IT wonder why the business forms it's own internal IT function. Sometimes one side is right, sometimes the other.

[vwdan]

Not quite the question is more how much effort should you as a contractor (albeit in this case a tree surgeon rather than IT bod) be required to confirm that what you've been asked to do is above board and legal. The council's viewpoint is that the information is easily available, I'm curious as to what the tree surgeon's argument is.

What I said, isn't it?

it will come down to what constitutes negligence, and what constitutes reasonable. ..........When it comes to your own work - similar questions would be asked. Did you know? Should you have known? Would a reasonable person, of the same skills, known? Did you do due dilligence? Were the orders untruthful or misleading? Etc etc etc.

[vetran]

If asked to do anything stupid I escalate to my divorce lawyer.

Has happened more times than it should....

FTFY

[eek]

Ordered to do something *illegal*. I don't think the case will change anything or bring in any kind of new precedent - it will come down to what constitutes negligence, and what constitutes reasonable. A builder wouldn't get taken to court if he builds an extension without planning permission, but does so to his clients plans. On the other hand, he's not going to be able to claim ignorance if the request is to knock down the neighbours conservatory.

When it comes to your own work - similar questions would be asked. Did you know? Should you have known? Would a reasonable person, of the same skills, known? Did you do due dilligence? Were the orders untruthful or misleading? Etc etc etc.

It's worth noting that few laws would make a distinction between being asked to do something - you're essentially relying on what defences each piece of legislation provides and common law defences.

Buuut, to be honest, I don't really understand the conflation with illegal and stupid in this thread, or what it proves. I'd hope nobody here would knowingly do something illegal - surely it's the grey area that's far more fun.

Not quite the question is more how much effort should you as a contractor (albeit in this case a tree surgeon rather than IT bod) be required to confirm that what you've been asked to do is above board and legal. The council's viewpoint is that the information is easily available, I'm curious as to what the tree surgeon's argument is.

[BR14]

Which part of that is related to English Criminal law?

none of it.
but if eveyone else is posting bollolks, why shouldn't i??

hth