Staying in the same public sector contract after April 2017

[eek]

Why do you think that ? The technical note specifically lists what 'intermediaries' are covered ? By consultancy I'm referring to the process of bidding for pieces of work, delivering and then finishing.

Consultancies are all things to all people, they will bid for anything that they can find resources for and make money from.

That means a lot of them provide resources for departments - and those resources are definitely inside. External fixed price pieces of work are outside but there is a very large middle ground where I really, really wouldn't want to second guess what the end client's HR departments policy will be....

[jamesbrown]

Consultancies are all things to all people, they will bid for anything that they can find resources for and make money from.

That means a lot of them provide resources for departments - and those resources are definitely inside. External fixed price pieces of work are outside but there is a very large middle ground where I really, really wouldn't want to second guess what the end client's HR departments policy will be....

Yep. Consultancies providing bodies to FOI agencies: those bodies are emphatically subject to the new rules, for which examples are provided. Consultancies fully delivering a public function and then recruiting contractors to deliver parts of that function (not at the PS client or taking instructions from the PS client): almost certainly not subject to the new rules (again, this was stated in the response to the consultation). Everything in between: anyone's guess, but I can guess where the balance will be!

[psychocandy]

No it may (and certainly does in many outsourcing examples). If all the consultancy is doing is providing a bum on a seat resource that bum on a seat is going to be inside regardless of how they are employed...

BUT surely theres a difference between PS client saying to consultancy "please provide 20 people on site" to a business contract with SLAs? In the 2nd case, the consultancy decide who and how many people are needed on site and basically just advise the end client of such. i.e. we need desk space for x people.

This is what happens where I am. If something changes, then consultancy out of courtesy advises end client but thats it. Some permies move from account to account within the consultancy.

[seeourbee]

I personally think those consultancies are not within scope at all. But like everyone says, it's all so grey, not thought through, inconsistent and full of holes.

[northernladuk]

I personally think those consultancies are not within scope at all. But like everyone says, it's all so grey, not thought through, inconsistent and full of holes.

But it's not the consultancy that is considered for scope.

[Andy Hallett]

Roles at consultancies, not owned by public funds, on deliverable based contracts should be outside of scope.

[psychocandy]

Roles at consultancies, not owned by public funds, on deliverable based contracts should be outside of scope.

But how do you define deliverable based contracts. This is a support contract with defined SLA so its a grey area methinks.

[eek]

But how do you define deliverable based contracts. This is a support contract with defined SLA so its a grey area methinks.

Nope it's inside. Support is day to day business as usual (well keeping business running as usual) so will depend on who has overall responsibility for that system.

Yes it's a mess (and we all know it is) but support work (especially if it's on-site and covers a number of different systems) is definitely inside unless it's 100% outsourced.

And I know you are clutching at straws to justify staying where you are. But if in April you are inside ir35 what changed then were hmrc to ask about 2016/17?

[northernladuk]

Nope it's inside. Support is day to day business as usual (well keeping business running as usual) so will depend on who has overall responsibility for that system.

Yes it's a mess (and we all know it is) but support work (especially if it's on-site and covers a number of different systems) is definitely inside unless it's 100% outsourced.

And to be fair nothing has really changed there. BAU work was a problem before all this.

[bobspud]

But how do you define deliverable based contracts. This is a support contract with defined SLA so its a grey area methinks.

A deliverables based contract is one that asks for an outcome to a specification. So:

I would like someone to build a virtual environment that can house unto 500 virtual machines at any one time and the sizes are ya-da ya-da ya-da... is a deliverable based contract because if I take that work on and my environment only scales to 300 then I don't get paid...

On the other hand:
Support contracts are a bit of a knife edge because on one hand the government department hands all responsibility for support to the third party and says my out come is "SUPPORT ME!" but they may also TUPE permanently employed people to sit in that contract.