Churchill Knight & Boox clients being investigated as Managed Service Companies

[jimmyoyang]

Good evening everyone. Really, and truly sorry we are caught up in this mess.

This week I've spent my time reaching out to QDOS, David Kirk and WTT to help me with appealing the incoming regs but also making conditional claims on DT and CT. Below is my summary, which may be beneficial to others, but also appreciate your thoughts on what I experienced.

QDOS

• They were recommended on the Boox website
• They seem to have a conveyor approach in that it just appeal with a standard letter and sees how it gets on
• They seemed quite negative (maybe realistic is the better term here) on whether we (me) as contractors would win if Boox/CK were to lose
• They are the cheapest at £90+VAT per appeal

WTT

• They seemed to be the most thorough with my time and questions. Their answers were more personalised rather than the usual jargon (one could argue, better salesmen?)
• Their appeal would be more personalised, and would almost challenge it rather than just appeal and wait approach
• They are very expensive being £450+VAT per appeal
• Generally, seemed more proactive in the conversation I had

DAVID KIRK

• Seems to be very busy with a high influx of cases so it appears to me like everyone (in our situation) is joining the group, feels like he would be the 'captain' of that ship
• The above is interesting, but I would expect less time and less attention so it'll just be an appeal with a generic letter and wait it out, it seems
• Cost is in the middle compared to the top two, with it at £175+VAT joining fee which covers the appeals and claims only
• Comes across as a nice guy, an individual who will be representing a bunch of contractors in the same situation.. I guess there are pros/cons to that approach too

In conclusion, I had the best feeling with WTT (they would have a personalised appeal where they would send across my evidence and argument) whilst the cost takes that into consideration. The other two are pretty much the same in terms of cost... and if I decide to just wait it out / sit on the fence then maybe they are the best approach.

Your thoughts and suggestions are much appreciated.

[Guy Incognito]

I put together a very detailed appeal in the hope of having my case dropped.

I wish I had not as I was still stood over and now they have time to pay expensive lawyers to find a small chink in my armour and f$%k me over.

[rdw1970]

Good evening everyone. Really, and truly sorry we are caught up in this mess.

This week I've spent my time reaching out to QDOS, David Kirk and WTT to help me with appealing the incoming regs but also making conditional claims on DT and CT. Below is my summary, which may be beneficial to others, but also appreciate your thoughts on what I experienced.

In conclusion, I had the best feeling with WTT (they would have a personalised appeal where they would send across my evidence and argument) whilst the cost takes that into consideration. The other two are pretty much the same in terms of cost... and if I decide to just wait it out / sit on the fence then maybe they are the best approach.

Your thoughts and suggestions are much appreciated.

Fair summary of the available options of support. IPSE is also another option for those affected by this.

Back in April when this all kicked off, WTT, DK and IPSE all hosted free webinars offering useful advice (and to look for members) The problem was the advice from each group sometimes contradicted each other - e.g DK said don't ask for your appeal to be reviewed by another HMRC officer who hasn't worked on the case as this sets a clock running and if your appeal isn't successful you have to pay up or could end up in a tribunal on your own whereas IPSE said you should ask for a review in your appeal letter.
WTT said your appeal should not be generic and mention your own personal circumstances as to why you're not an MSC whereas (I think) DK advised just getting a generic appeal in on time as HMRC doesn't have the resources to read through and consider 2000+ appeals. It was all very confusing and difficult to know what to do for the best so, as you said, I went on feeling and signed up to DKs MSC Survivors group.

I should note in the case of DK, the £175+ VAT is for 2017\18 CT Claim only, you need to sign up again in April for him to submit 2016\17 CT and DT Claims (which are not due until 31st Jan 2024) and NI County Court Claims. He has responded to all of my questions and queries and given good advice so far so I'm happy to continue my membership.

[Sijo]

I went with WTT for my initial appeal. Their fee was higher, but I thought a detailed appeal would help to change HMRC mind. Well, it didn't work like that and I also got a standard response that my appeal is valid and it stood over. Last week I have asked WTT that, would my initial payment cover the appeal required for new Reg 80 and NIC letters. They said I would need to pay £450 again. I don't think it's worth that amount as I don't think our appeal is even read by HMRC. I had joined DK after the initial appeal and probably will continue with him.

[jimmyoyang]

In addition to my investigation for a tax expert to represent me, I also have a question for the wider group. I am exploring the idea of POA... to at least ring-fence the growing interest rates. However, I most definitely do not have the money that's being asked for, especially in my business account.

My question is, if I POA but used personal funds (I know it is a business-related issue right now) would that be approved? Secondly, if yes, then if that money was a gift (from my parents) would that be approved? will there be interest in that transaction as it came from a third party? and with the high-value money at stake, would I need to get a 'Gifted Deposit Receipt' signed and sealed by a solicitor? as if I was buying a home? Which is what I had to do in the past. Or, do HMRC not really care where the money comes from as long as they got it in their reserves? Food for thought.

Thanks again.

[dochkaian]

In addition to my investigation for a tax expert to represent me, I also have a question for the wider group. I am exploring the idea of POA... to at least ring-fence the growing interest rates. However, I most definitely do not have the money that's being asked for, especially in my business account.

Apologies for being dim, what is a POA . . . . ?

[eek]

Apologies for being dim, what is a POA . . . . ?

Payment on account - so the money is sat in your personal tax account stopping interest being charged

[Hareforthebear]

They said I would need to pay £450 again.

Gee that’s a bit of a liberty isn’t it? I haven’t seen the new demands yet but presumably it’s just a matter of changing the dates / reference, as the circumstances haven’t changed.

I don’t understand why they even need a new appeal since it stems from the same issue.

Would a simple letter / email with essentially ‘this is an appeal on the same grounds as x appeal’ not suffice?

[GregRickshaw]

Good evening everyone. Really, and truly sorry we are caught up in this mess.

This week I've spent my time reaching out to QDOS, David Kirk and WTT to help me with appealing the incoming regs but also making conditional claims on DT and CT. Below is my summary, which may be beneficial to others, but also appreciate your thoughts on what I experienced.

QDOS

• They were recommended on the Boox website
• They seem to have a conveyor approach in that it just appeal with a standard letter and sees how it gets on
• They seemed quite negative (maybe realistic is the better term here) on whether we (me) as contractors would win if Boox/CK were to lose
• They are the cheapest at £90+VAT per appeal

WTT

• They seemed to be the most thorough with my time and questions. Their answers were more personalised rather than the usual jargon (one could argue, better salesmen?)
• Their appeal would be more personalised, and would almost challenge it rather than just appeal and wait approach
• They are very expensive being £450+VAT per appeal
• Generally, seemed more proactive in the conversation I had

DAVID KIRK

• Seems to be very busy with a high influx of cases so it appears to me like everyone (in our situation) is joining the group, feels like he would be the 'captain' of that ship
• The above is interesting, but I would expect less time and less attention so it'll just be an appeal with a generic letter and wait it out, it seems
• Cost is in the middle compared to the top two, with it at £175+VAT joining fee which covers the appeals and claims only
• Comes across as a nice guy, an individual who will be representing a bunch of contractors in the same situation.. I guess there are pros/cons to that approach too

In conclusion, I had the best feeling with WTT (they would have a personalised appeal where they would send across my evidence and argument) whilst the cost takes that into consideration. The other two are pretty much the same in terms of cost... and if I decide to just wait it out / sit on the fence then maybe they are the best approach.

Your thoughts and suggestions are much appreciated.

There is one more company who you may want to consider, who are not doing the class action/group thing (which is utterly useless as we are all different).

Gilbert Tax, as far as I know they are the only ones actively going at HMRC and not just sending out templated letters and appealing stuff.

I had my 17/18 determination removed, I fully expect 18/19 to now not even come thanks to Gilbert Tax pointing out the obvious.

From your list though, and from what I know DK seems the best option as he is cheaper and doing the exact same thing as the others. He is already asking for another £175 though and yes he seems a good guy and knows his stuff but he is only writing one letter and templating out to all others, he's not offer an individual service.

The other option of course is to use CKA's free appeals and conditional letters which have been drafted by their solicitors, who will be representing CK clients at the tribunal.

QDOS are right, if CKA and Boox can't convince HMRC they are the P in all of this, and let's be honest here HMRC have no interest in that fight they want the tribunal then it will be an uphill task to prove you are not an MSC (not impossible but difficult after tribunal and written law).

[jamesbrown]

Gee that’s a bit of a liberty isn’t it?

Yes, but not surprising. Some around here are fans of WTT, but they always looked like ambulance chasers to me. See Big Group, for example. Cash cow from the beginning. Personally, I would avoid them. As others have said, the main thing is to get an appeal in and then ready your evidence. If you don’t meet the basic requirements (like being a client in 17/18 and paying the greater part or all of the consideration for the services to yourself), then it’s worth flagging/pushing those points as they are the only things that will get it closed out early.