Trump's legacy

[DoctorStrangelove]

Which is when most government infrastructure projects were hived off to the private sector under ruinous (and continuing) PFI deals, the civil service was politicised, the Cabinet was side-lined in favour of personally appointed (and often unqualified) friends, relations, SPADS and other advisors, regulatory duties were passed on to toothless quangos and Brown sold off the gold and screwed what was the world's best pension scheme...

Your point is?

What's your point? Everything the tory bastards did is fine?

[malvolio]

What's your point? Everything the tory bastards did is fine?

Oh grow up. It's not a binary situation of my dad is bigger than your dad. If you want to take that to the extreme, do you prefer Charles I to Cromwell?

Both Labour and the Tories are complicit in the mess we are in now. Just try to understand the historical reality; a lot of the current issues stem from Blair and Brown's changes to he way the UK is governed. The growth of the career politician (Burnham being a prime example but there are hundreds of them in Parliament) and the focus on personal advancement at the expense of the country's best interests (Starmer being the latest and possibly most egregious version) is why we are where we are.

Understanding the context does not mean you consider anyone to be right or wrong. Mostly it shows why the current crowd aren't in control.

[DaiTheContractor]

Starmer being the latest and possibly most egregious version

I'd love to know what makes him more egregious than either Johnson or Truss, the latter of whom has entirely lost her marbles in the wake of her embarrassing tenure.

Not that you're not wrong on these points. The current establishment parties are serving nobody's best interests, least of all the country's, and the alternatives should terrify us as well. On one side we've got Farage, who rakes in millions in the course of representing Russian and Iranian interests, and on the other is the Greens who are currently coasting on disillusioned voters but will have to start showing substance sooner rather than later.

[Protagoras]

Perhaps Trump's principal legacy will be a more divided USA? At what point might States want to leave the Union and reject Federal government?

I do think that Britain is heading for even greater division too. This will be particularly evident if England returns a Reform government which the other UK counties don't want (not that they want Labour or Tory either).

[malvolio]

I'd love to know what makes him more egregious than either Johnson or Truss, the latter of whom has entirely lost her marbles in the wake of her embarrassing tenure.
.

Johnson bumbled into the job because he was so appalled at the running away Cameron and the supine May, thinking he couldn't do any worse. Snag is he was far too casual about it all and forgot to study the detail. He was, however a pretty charismatic leader - unless you had to work with him - and had some notable successes.

Truss was always delusional. Her budget actually made perfect sense and would have worked, if she'd bothered to cost it and establish a time line.

Starmer was a key supporter of Corbyn, cheerfully ignoring the antisemitism and foolhardy (and again utterly un-costed) promises on welfare changes he was proposing. Once Corbyn failed to win, Starmer mysteriously abandoned all that he had just been standing for and re-invented himself with a whole new agenda. He then came up with a manifesto he had no intention of following and lied through his teeth all through the election. Once it the manifesto was dumped, he continued to lie and showed himself to be both devoid of wit, charisma or political ability.

Yes, all three were appalling in their own way, but only Starmer seems to have made risible incompetence an art form.

[willendure]

Truss was always delusional. Her budget actually made perfect sense and would have worked, if she'd bothered to cost it and establish a time line.

I don't think she was delusional, I think her plan was actually the best one we've had in a long time and might have actually shifted the needle on our economy. You need to cut tax to grow - cut tax to grow, impose tax after you've grown. No point in whining on about it, but it was the execution of the plan that was too rushed that did them in.

If you believe Corbyn was anti-semitic you will believe anything (or maybe a Zionist).

[malvolio]

If you believe Corbyn was anti-semitic you will believe anything (or maybe a Zionist).

Inviting Hamas to the HOC and actively supporting calls for a Palestinian state doesn't exactly shout pro-semitic to me.

[hobnob]

Inviting Hamas to the HOC and actively supporting calls for a Palestinian state doesn't exactly shout pro-semitic to me.

Regarding Hamas, do you think that the UK government was wrong to negotiate with the IRA? If they hadn't, we'd never have got the Good Friday agreement.

I don't know whether a 1-state or 2-state solution is the best long-term plan, but I don't think it's fair to say that anyone who advocates for a 2-state solution is anti-semitic. I think it's also pretty clear that Israeli state policy is to get rid of all the Palestinians from Gaza, either by killing them (even during a so-called ceasefire) or by forcing them to leave the country.

Coming back to the original topic, I disagree with most of what Trump's administration is doing (e.g. executing their own citizens in the street). However, that doesn't mean that I hate all Americans. Likewise, I disagree with what Netanyahu is doing in Israel, but that doesn't mean I hate all Jews.

[malvolio]

Regarding Hamas, do you think that the UK government was wrong to negotiate with the IRA? If they hadn't, we'd never have got the Good Friday agreement.

Actually, having worked in Belfast in the late 70s and with relatives serving in what was the Ulster Constabulary, I think they were. And the GFD and the cotinuing persecution of the serving military is another example of settling a dispute with a total lack of justice. Feel free to dissgree.

I don't know whether a 1-state or 2-state solution is the best long-term plan, but I don't think it's fair to say that anyone who advocates for a 2-state solution is anti-semitic. I think it's also pretty clear that Israeli state policy is to get rid of all the Palestinians from Gaza, either by killing them (even during a so-called ceasefire) or by forcing them to leave the country.

Just read Hamass stated aims for the region. Nuff said

Coming back to the original topic, I disagree with most of what Trump's administration is doing (e.g. executing their own citizens in the street). However, that doesn't mean that I hate all Americans. Likewise, I disagree with what Netanyahu is doing in Israel, but that doesn't mean I hate all Jews.

But I'm not allowed to think all terrorists are bad people.... (OK, I will exempt Mandela, but he was fighting against a hateful regime)

[Protagoras]

But I'm not allowed to think all terrorists are bad people.... (OK, I will exempt Mandela, but he was fighting against a hateful regime)

I don't know the source for the quote "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" but it remains apt.

It will probably never universally be agreed whether someone repelling occupation by a foreign power is a terrorist or a freedom fighter. It's a matter of perspective.