Make Britain Great Again

[edison]

No system is perfect and they all have flaws - but crazy that reform got more votes than Lib Dems.
Reform got 4 seats - Lib Dems 71.

Not particularly crazy, this sort of thing has been happening since the 70s. First past the post rewards parties with geographic concentrations of seats.

The Liberal SDP Alliance got over 25% of the vote in 1983 and were only 2% off coming second but got just 23 seats.

In 1974 the Liberals got 19% of the vote and a mere 6 seats.

If anyone should be complaining about the system it's the Lib Dems, who along with their predecessors, have been held back by it for 50 years.

[GJABS]

So they are voting for an agenda, not because they are not Tory or Labour.

I think both are true. In that one of their agendas is to have a non-establishment party. They want politicians who are new to power who have not (yet) started to become corrupted towards serving the interests of the rich, or serving the interests of "fairness" (i.e. "woke" stuff), or the rest of the world etc which they believe the Tories and Labour have become.

Of course it is probably only a matter of time before Reform gets corrupted like the rest of them. But at the moment Nigel Farage at least seems to be honest, committed, empathetic, and passionate, so they are going with that.

[Zigenare]

Not particularly crazy, this sort of thing has been happening since the 70s. First past the post rewards parties with geographic concentrations of seats.

The Liberal SDP Alliance got over 25% of the vote in 1983 and were only 2% off coming second but got just 23 seats.

In 1974 the Liberals got 19% of the vote and a mere 6 seats.

If anyone should be complaining about the system it's the Lib Dems, who along with their predecessors, have been held back by it for 50 years.

I think Paddy Ashdown would've made a great Prime Minister!

[sadkingbilly]

Nigel Farage at least seems to be honest, committed, empathetic, and passionate.

[northernladuk]

I think both are true. In that one of their agendas is to have a non-establishment party. They want politicians who are new to power who have not (yet) started to become corrupted towards serving the interests of the rich, or serving the interests of "fairness" (i.e. "woke" stuff), or the rest of the world etc which they believe the Tories and Labour have become.

I have to disagree. The only agenda I've heard from any Reform voter is borders and immigration. None of them would have a clue about non establishment parties. They don't give a stuff about who the politician is, just that they'll close the borders. I think you are giving the vast number of Reform voters far too much credit there.

Of course it is probably only a matter of time before Reform gets corrupted like the rest of them. But at the moment Nigel Farage at least seems to be honest, committed, empathetic, and passionate, so they are going with that.

Probably worse than the rest of them as it's a new party that's new to any kind of power which will be worse. I have to agree with what you said about Nigel even though SKB is laughing above. He does appear pretty good at what he does but looping back to your first part of that quite I'm sure he'll fall in line when he's had a taste of power.

[Andy2022]

I think both are true. In that one of their agendas is to have a non-establishment party. They want politicians who are new to power who have not (yet) started to become corrupted towards serving the interests of the rich, or serving the interests of "fairness" (i.e. "woke" stuff), or the rest of the world etc which they believe the Tories and Labour have become.

Of course it is probably only a matter of time before Reform gets corrupted like the rest of them. But at the moment Nigel Farage at least seems to be honest, committed, empathetic, and passionate, so they are going with that.

Oh come on… Farage, Tice and co are the epitomony of serving the interests of the rich… they're just tapping into the the anger and resentment some poorer working class communities are feeling by blaming immigrants, wokeness, EU etc for their plights instead of blaming the other right people who failed these people

[agentzero]

You've completely and utterly missed the point. I'm pretty amazed how badly you've missed it and how TBH. It's summed up in one sentence on their page and it's all over the news 'Only Reform will stand up for British culture, identity and values.' It's mainly the brexit lot voting with immigration as the only thing on their mind.
How on earth can you appear so utterly clueless one day after the actual vote? Where on earth have you been hiding for the last 6 weeks?


Again, I'm pretty staggered. Not one mention of (probably) the real reason even through it's been reported ad nauseam for the last few weeks. I'm not a Reform voter standing on my soap box here, just amazed at how badly you've got this wrong. A staunch supporter of whatever party could point out how badly you've missed it here.

Arguably true but not sure how you've come to this conclusion without having a clue. The thought of them winning is horrific I'll agree but they are floating along on a single agenda that the populace is getting more and more angry about and it's just getting worse to the point that even the left have to admit is unsustainable.
Look at Europe and it's jolt to the right. It's not just some angry red faced out of towner, it's the whole continent.



Do I need to point out the irony of the garbage?

I didn't want to remove context by editing your post and removing text.

I'm in Scotland. You seem to concentrate on a specific type of immigration. Someone who moves here from anywhere is classed in the numbers as an immigrant, including British passport holders. Many people also left as well as arriving. Reform's advertising concentrates on those who are more likely to be asylum seekers and poor immigrants, which are a minority of immigrants overall.

If people lack jobs, well paid jobs and opportunities, some will lurch to the hard/far right wing parties around the world. The solution is a centrist approach and a better economy. Brexit cannot and will not give these people a better economy, so doubling down on Reform and brexit won't help. The UK is a country of immigrants, but to a lesser extent than the USA.

If young people have been sold out by brexit then going further to the right won't solve the core problem of poor economy. As soon as public services and essential core services are cut under a Reform agenda then any extra money these poor people earn will then see most go on the services that they can no longer receive.

I am happy to excuse their reason for voting Reform, but it doesn't change the reality that if they want better opportunities, going further and further towards the hard right won't actually solve their problems, it will just make them feel temporarily as if it has solved their problems. Their reality will be worse.

[GJABS]

Oh come on… Farage, Tice and co are the epitomony of serving the interests of the rich…

In which case you would see the rich supporting them - which you don't. The rich only support the Tories, in the main.

[malvolio]

In which case you would see the rich supporting them - which you don't. The rich only support the Tories, in the main.

The Right/Left debate over immigration is and always has been a sideshow, a simple way to categorise the political landscape for simple people

The left are actually about taking from the rich and giving to the poor - redistribution is the actual term they use - whereas the right is basically about letting the rich create the wealth in the economy to benefit everyone. It was Marx that labelled the right wing approach as something reprehensible and invented the left wing approach.

That approach has its appeal, but it's never really been made to work. Most left wing regimes still have a very wealthy uber class, the difference being that the wealth stays there rather than being spread around the population. Scandinavia is one of the few regions where the left wing approach actually works, but mainly because there is a strong work ethic (and a high tax bill for all).

The other issue is that both sides of the fence have allowed the growth of a culture where if you don't work, for various reasons, some of which are a little dubious, then don't worry, the state - i.e. the rest of us - will bail you out.

The net result is far too much of GDP being tied up with people who simply won't put themselves out to earn money (obviously excepting the many who genuinely can't of course).

What we won't see from Labour is a meaningful attempt to correct that imbalance, it's simply not in their mindset. So it's the good old worker (not the one defined by Starmer, the real ones) who will have to pick up the bill. And the real problem with immigration is not the ones who come here to work for a living, it's the dependents and illegals who are simply adding to the welfare overhead.

[vetran]

I didn't want to remove context by editing your post and removing text.

I'm in Scotland. You seem to concentrate on a specific type of immigration. Someone who moves here from anywhere is classed in the numbers as an immigrant, including British passport holders. Many people also left as well as arriving. Reform's advertising concentrates on those who are more likely to be asylum seekers and poor immigrants, which are a minority of immigrants overall.

If people lack jobs, well paid jobs and opportunities, some will lurch to the hard/far right wing parties around the world. The solution is a centrist approach and a better economy. Brexit cannot and will not give these people a better economy, so doubling down on Reform and brexit won't help. The UK is a country of immigrants, but to a lesser extent than the USA.

If young people have been sold out by brexit then going further to the right won't solve the core problem of poor economy. As soon as public services and essential core services are cut under a Reform agenda then any extra money these poor people earn will then see most go on the services that they can no longer receive.

I am happy to excuse their reason for voting Reform, but it doesn't change the reality that if they want better opportunities, going further and further towards the hard right won't actually solve their problems, it will just make them feel temporarily as if it has solved their problems. Their reality will be worse.

Well someone better tell those ethnicities massively overrepresented in the crime figures.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...stem-2022-html

Despite what you imagine the hard right isn't defined as people suggesting that more control over immigration is needed. The looney left is definitely people wanting uncontrolled immigration.

Odd that we had race riots well before Brexit and black on black violence decades ago. Now its all caused by Brexit according to you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Boy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_E...%20deprivation.

Better opportunities after the loss of shipbuilding and mining is down to training & new industries, it really doesn't matter what ethnicity if you are out of London there are few new opportunities demonstrated by house prices up north.