Originally posted by eek
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Liz Truss &IR35
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"I can put any old tat in my sig, put quotes around it and attribute to someone of whom I've heard, to make it sound true."
- Voltaire/Benjamin Franklin/Anne Frank... -
And I would create a new Ltd if I do another piece of work.
Eight days to prep and run a workshop hardly keeps me inside."I can put any old tat in my sig, put quotes around it and attribute to someone of whom I've heard, to make it sound true."
- Voltaire/Benjamin Franklin/Anne Frank...Comment
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And the mess that is CEST. It's slowly come back to me; the bias, the odd questions, the weighting on substitution etc then having HMRC say that they can disregard it when it suits them.Comment
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Originally posted by youngguy View Post
And the mess that is CEST. It's slowly come back to me; the bias, the odd questions, the weighting on substitution etc then having HMRC say that they can disregard it when it suits them.
Remember there are 3 separate legs for employment:- Right of substitution
- Mutuality of obligation (which is why furloughs at Xmas are great)
- Supervision / Direction / Control
merely at clientco for the entertainmentComment
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Originally posted by eek View Post
HMRC can't disregard substitution they just don't like it's existence...
Remember there are 3 separate legs for employment:- Right of substitution
- Mutuality of obligation (which is why furloughs at Xmas are great)
- Supervision / Direction / Control
But you are quite right about the pillars. We know them well and it's never been otherwise....but HMRC don't seem to/seem to twist based upon their desired outcomes.
I had no doubt I was outside IR35 back in the day. What I did doubt was my ability to prove this quickly if that letter dropped on the doorstep, thus removing years of unnecessary stress around an investigation.
At that point any win could well be labelled a pyrrhic victory.
That's the issue. I don't mind HMRC looking, but they shouldn't be allowed to proceed without suitable evidence and timeframes should.be capped.
I suspect in reality they know the pain of the process is more of a deterrent than anything else.
Last edited by youngguy; 26 September 2022, 14:27.Comment
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Originally posted by eek View Post
HMRC can't disregard substitution they just don't like it's existence...
Remember there are 3 separate legs for employment:- Right of substitution
- Mutuality of obligation (which is why furloughs at Xmas are great)
- Supervision / Direction / Control
Also RoS is widely considered a sham so that one alone isn't going to help you. MoO (or lack thereof) is so badly understood most people that 'think' they have (or don't have) it are probably wrong and SDC is a complex one also misunderstood. Look at all the posts we've had where people think they aren't under SDC just because they work from home.
So in theory, done properly you could be right but in reality most people thinking they are safe with just one of those probably need to think again.
But all that is said with the fear of investigation and everything from the old days. Maybe this time it's different.'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!Comment
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Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
You are probably right but I don't think it's as simple as that statement reads. If that were the case we wouldn't have had all the fear over investigations etc. Just one is possible but only one is enough to take a closer look. A proper outside gig would need all three. QDOS certainly wouldn't agree with the above when doing a contract review.
Also RoS is widely considered a sham so that one alone isn't going to help you. MoO (or lack thereof) is so badly understood most people that 'think' they have (or don't have) it are probably wrong and SDC is a complex one also misunderstood. Look at all the posts we've had where people think they aren't under SDC just because they work from home.
So in theory, done properly you could be right but in reality most people thinking they are safe with just one of those probably need to think again.
But all that is said with the fear of investigation and everything from the old days. Maybe this time it's different.
HMRC reckon it's a sham. They used CEST to reinforce that view.
It's now back as a problem for them as they do still have to prove it's a sham. And most clients are more IR35 savvy now, so a better chance that RoS would be honored if questioned. Especially if they (client) aren't risking any liability.See You Next TuesdayComment
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Originally posted by Lance View Post
I was thing about RoS.
HMRC reckon it's a sham. They used CEST to reinforce that view.
It's now back as a problem for them as they do still have to prove it's a sham. And most clients are more IR35 savvy now, so a better chance that RoS would be honored if questioned. Especially if they (client) aren't risking any liability.
For skilled work RoS is always going to be hard to argue about because the end client has probably picked you personally for your particular knowledge and skill sets.
However that doesn't really apply for things like HGV drivers where I was speaking to agencies earlier today who rather liked my idea of a substitutes bench of workers to just about tick them over into outside contracts.
But you then have to remember that that market is very wage sensitive so anything that allows agencies to keep drivers is very welcome..merely at clientco for the entertainmentComment
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Originally posted by Lance View Post
I was thing about RoS.
HMRC reckon it's a sham. They used CEST to reinforce that view.
It's now back as a problem for them as they do still have to prove it's a sham. And most clients are more IR35 savvy now, so a better chance that RoS would be honored if questioned. Especially if they (client) aren't risking any liability.
That said the RoS is in a standard agency contract the client tends to know nothing about so guess many will just carry on and not confirm it with the client.'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!Comment
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Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
I'm thinking more the other way. They now know what RoS is and it's serious so they'll be more inclined to say no as opposed to just glossing over it and leaving it unaddressed as we did in the past. They didn't care before but now it's something they've thought about they are more likely to stipulate it i.e. no.
That said the RoS is in a standard agency contract the client tends to know nothing about so guess many will just carry on and not confirm it with the client.merely at clientco for the entertainmentComment
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