State of the Market

[BigDataPro]

...Perm employment has three stages of interviews!

...And you have explain with examples on why you are suitable for the role & where do you see yourself in 5 years time!!!

[PCTNN]

...And you have explain with examples on why you are suitable for the role & where do you see yourself in 5 years time!!!

I had at least a dozen interviews for permanent roles in my life and not once was I asked those questions.

[malvolio]

I have never worked with a single Project manager in my 16 years career where they knew what they were doing. I have always felt that I know more than them even though I am not a Project manager by rank or title!

You're missing the point. Speaking as a sometime PM who's delivered multi-million pound programmes, I don't have to have detailed knowledge, I have to be able to allow the people that do have the knowledge to deliver what is required to the required standard. Otherwise, why would I need you?

[northernladuk]

We are just sitting on the fence and waiting while we plunder our warchest. Us contractors will remain contractors till we retire. Perm employment has three stages of interviews!

You've got to be careful with these sweeping statements. You've made three that are highly questionable.

I find it highly unlikely you've never met a good pm in 16 years. If that's the case then you've either (a) been incredibly unlucky (b) you don't work in circles where you come across the good guys (c) you are so far up your own bum no one meets your standards. Granted they are few and far between but they are there. I can name at least 4 who I believe were epic, spanning back a decade. You just don't forget the good ones that are head and shoulders over the MS Project shufflers. Same with a quality BA. There aren't many but not meeting one in 16 years is a bit hard to swallow.

Contractors will remain contractors until you retire is a bit short sighted. The idea of a contractor is to be in business for yourself which includes considering all opportunities. You might go perm for family reasons, re-train, a break or whatever. There are many situations where a perm role could be a serious consideration. There are plenty of very active, quality contractors on this site who have gone perm, usually on equivalent money. To be a contractor just to be a contractor isn't the smartest thing to do. Having such a blinkered approach means you are going to miss quality opportunities.

Generally yes perm employment tends to have more interviews but it's not strictly true. I had three for the gig I'm on now and I've had three before. In both cases it was via a small consultancy delivering a managed service to a large client. One interview with the company owner/recruiter, another with the senior programme leads for the work you'll be doing and one with the client as a courtesy. I can say in both cases the consultancy team were top notch so as annoying as the process was it worked. No half arsed bum on seat contractors. Telling everyone that contractors never have three interview tells me you aren't senior/experienced enough to work on large complex programmes through consultancies and you are used to a one shot bum on seat interviews. I'm probably wrong as we've chatted plenty before but that's what it looks like a you've written it. You don't know what you don't know if you get me.

All your comments are generally right and up for discussion but are certainly not a hard fact as you have presented them.

[tjccjt01]

Serious question about contractors that are struggling in general to secure even calls:
What's keeping your spirits up, and are you considering continue doing contracting under the current market conditions?

I'm fortunate in that I don't have any outstanding debts and I have a fair sum in the bank for just this situation. Apart from that I jst tell myself that this will pass and I will find a new role. It might take longer than it usually does and it might not be as well remunerated as some past roles have been but I just have to get one role.

Failing that, if nothing turns up in the next couple of months I might start looking at going back to perm for a while.

T

[simes]

Serious question about contractors that are struggling in general to secure even calls:
What's keeping your spirits up, and are you considering continue doing contracting under the current market conditions?

The spirits are kept alive with the aid of spirits.

Otherwise, I occasionally work as a film extra and I regularly write and have published books that we launch abroad by way of big events.

And then when the spirits have raised the spirits to inordinate lengths of chirpiness, I check in here to keep my feet on the ground.

As to contracting under current market conditions, as needs must. Not that that has had any positive impact on what has otherwise been a seamless series of contracts for 20 years prior to Covid/IR35 changes. I receive equal response to Inside and Outside opportunities; Read: none.

[PCTNN]

Failing that, if nothing turns up in the next couple of months I might start looking at going back to perm for a while.

T

Genuine question: what makes you think you'll have more luck in the permanent job market?

The permanent job market is just as bad, with not many opportunities and loads of people looking. And hiring managers are notoriously skeptical about bringing in ex contractors that may jump ship the second they get a contract.

[dsc]

Genuine question: what makes you think you'll have more luck in the permanent job market?

The permanent job market is just as bad, with not many opportunities and loads of people looking. And hiring managers are notoriously skeptical about bringing in ex contractors that may jump ship the second they get a contract.

Adding to this, ex-contractors / temp-perms typically want crazy money because "I used to be on £91283091802938 per day, I'm not taking a job that pays less than what the CEO is on".

[avonleigh]

Genuine question: what makes you think you'll have more luck in the permanent job market?

The permanent job market is just as bad, with not many opportunities and loads of people looking. And hiring managers are notoriously skeptical about bringing in ex contractors that may jump ship the second they get a contract.

Spot on

[Destiny2]

...And you have explain with examples on why you are suitable for the role & where do you see yourself in 5 years time!!!

Don't forget the part where they take copies of your certificates on your first interview!

You're missing the point. Speaking as a sometime PM who's delivered multi-million pound programmes, I don't have to have detailed knowledge, I have to be able to allow the people that do have the knowledge to deliver what is required to the required standard. Otherwise, why would I need you?

I get that. But, a PM needs to ensure the project is making good progress so that it meets the deadline date. The ones I have worked with always rush things right at the end and hire more people in a frenzy to meet the deadline while overworking the rest of us. Then, they walk away with a big bonus at having done a good job! I know about GANTT charts and the US Navy PERT charts from my uni days and I am not even a PM.

You've got to be careful with these sweeping statements. You've made three that are highly questionable.

I find it highly unlikely you've never met a good pm in 16 years. If that's the case then you've either (a) been incredibly unlucky (b) you don't work in circles where you come across the good guys (c) you are so far up your own bum no one meets your standards. Granted they are few and far between but they are there. I can name at least 4 who I believe were epic, spanning back a decade. You just don't forget the good ones that are head and shoulders over the MS Project shufflers. Same with a quality BA. There aren't many but not meeting one in 16 years is a bit hard to swallow.

Contractors will remain contractors until you retire is a bit short sighted. The idea of a contractor is to be in business for yourself which includes considering all opportunities. You might go perm for family reasons, re-train, a break or whatever. There are many situations where a perm role could be a serious consideration. There are plenty of very active, quality contractors on this site who have gone perm, usually on equivalent money. To be a contractor just to be a contractor isn't the smartest thing to do. Having such a blinkered approach means you are going to miss quality opportunities.

Generally yes perm employment tends to have more interviews but it's not strictly true. I had three for the gig I'm on now and I've had three before. In both cases it was via a small consultancy delivering a managed service to a large client. One interview with the company owner/recruiter, another with the senior programme leads for the work you'll be doing and one with the client as a courtesy. I can say in both cases the consultancy team were top notch so as annoying as the process was it worked. No half arsed bum on seat contractors. Telling everyone that contractors never have three interview tells me you aren't senior/experienced enough to work on large complex programmes through consultancies and you are used to a one shot bum on seat interviews. I'm probably wrong as we've chatted plenty before but that's what it looks like a you've written it. You don't know what you don't know if you get me.

All your comments are generally right and up for discussion but are certainly not a hard fact as you have presented them.

(a) and still looking!

You need to keep in mind that I work in support. With support roles, you have one face to face interview and then you start next week. At the beginning of my career, when I opted for perm support roles, I often had to go through one telephone interview and three face-to-face interviews before being told I didn't make it.

When I have attempted to go back to being a permie, I have always been told that the hiring manager cannot fathom why there are so many gaps in my CV ( I used to take summer vacations lol ) and why I keep changing ships. As a result, they are not sure how commited I will be to my perm role.