State of the Market

[SussexSeagull]

What I saw was some kind of osmosis of permies to contractors. Permies start to see the odd contractor appearing in their company, find out there's more money to be made doing the same job, then if they're not risk averse will switch sides.

Over time there's so many contractors and contracts available, even risk averse permies start to switch sides in large numbers. In the tech industry it was also the best way to earn more without having to move to management. So it almost became a career progression. The employers would treat the contractors the same as permies, but had the benefit of being a lot easier to get rid of. No employment tribunals, sick days etc. What was happening was disguised employment hence HMRC stepping trying to clamp down on it.

I think there is a lot in the second part. Even in the good times you did hit a salary ceiling with tech roles which you needed to break into management to get round and then you had to buy into the politics, etc.

Even if contractors cost more long term, they are also easier to get rid of should circumstances change, which I think might have entered the thinking of some people.

[SussexSeagull]

The contracting industry (and wider white collar roles) has been on the floor for a couple of years now so it's fairly safe to say that there is no single event that will turn it round.

At some stage you have to shrug your shoulders and say it is a structural change to the workplace.

[rocktronAMP]

Well I won an Outside IR35 contract in mid-July and setup the whole Jamboree as a LTD company.
This week the contract of engagement was cancelled. Official reason was "Due to a change in our business commercial priorities and situation" for 3 months rolling and 2 week either way cancel clause.
(I took it with a heavy degree of salt. I was definitely good enough and like Jimi Hendrix asked, I could safely answer "I am experienced". So nowt to do with my work nor performance :-)

It is pouring with Symphony of Destruction metalllic Black Rain out there!!
Take cover!


(and the engagement was a matching my last 2019 daily contract rate to boot. I thought of course : happy days! Nope. Back.To.Search.Again/. )

[quackhandle]

Seeing the fashion for FTCs, I am probably approx 3-4 months from closing the ltd, but then what? Applied for permy roles but they are like pulling my own teeth.

2 interviews and one of those bulltulip psychometric test (never done one before), then in final int they say this question around five times: "what would you do if you received no help on the project?"

Spidey-sense off the scale, I'd be walking into a tulipshow and no help provided. When you are in an outside gig, that's fine as you get paid for all work, however I can see the email/voice now: "We expect you to go the extra mile."

Not for the salary you are offering, bub.

F**k me a need that lottery win sharpish.

</rant>

qh

[ShandyDrinker]

That's not what I'm seeing, in fact I'd say it was quite the opposite.

I'd agree with that. But then if you've primarily been in the financial services sector, as it sounds like you have been, practically all contracts are now via umbrella or via agency PAYE.

For it to be suggested that in general it's 2 to 1 in favour of outside IR35 contracts. No way.

I'm also a believer that what HMT/HMRC have done was absolutely by intent and was ever since IR35 was originally introduced. Although I can't find reference anymore, I am sure years ago I did read that one of the reasons IR35 was originally introduced was allegedly because the wife of an ex-PM couldn't stand the fact that contractors were earning more than those in the legal profession in the run up to the year 2000. Is there any truth to that, was it an urban myth or is it just part of an overactive imagination?

[Dorkeaux]

Seeing the fashion for FTCs, I am probably approx 3-4 months from closing the ltd, but then what? Applied for permy roles but they are like pulling my own teeth.

2 interviews and one of those bulltulip psychometric test (never done one before), then in final int they say this question around five times: "what would you do if you received no help on the project?"

Spidey-sense off the scale, I'd be walking into a tulipshow and no help provided. When you are in an outside gig, that's fine as you get paid for all work, however I can see the email/voice now: "We expect you to go the extra mile."

Not for the salary you are offering, bub.

F**k me a need that lottery win sharpish.



qh

Yeah.. You know, I'm not seeing a lot of FTCs in my area. I've never been offered one, and only seen one or two in the wild.
I don't know how common they are really, but the are certainly a terrible deal. At least the couple I've clocked.

I've posted about my only permie interview ever.. not for me. Good on you for trying it on, I couldn't do it.
In addition to my massively inappropriate gabbling, the HR doofus actually asked me "If you were a bug, what sort of bug would you be?"
I wasn't cool about it, I gawped at him for a second then told him what an irrelevent question it was for a technical interview..

Just not cut out for permie roles.

Regarding inside vs outside, all the posters keep saying that outside roles are disappearing but I have found until recently the vast majority of the roles in my area are outside.
Now however, I'm seeing a bit of a shift towards inside.

[oliverson]

one man LTD webdevs = 'entrepreneurs'

Who's said they were a webdev?

I have three Ltd companies, none of which do web development.

[avonleigh]

Not seeing an increase in FTC's personally for testing roles.1 or 2 but you see that even when the market is good. No way is there more outside roles than inside either. Would say it's probably 60/40 in favour of inside. Have no stats to back that up, just a gut feel.

Market is still awful. Not improving at all, not even a little up tick since schools have gone back. Don't know where we go from here. Hard to have any confidence things will be any different in spring, which is normally a time for optimism.

[Bluenose]

Well I won an Outside IR35 contract in mid-July and setup the whole Jamboree as a LTD company.
This week the contract of engagement was cancelled. Official reason was "Due to a change in our business commercial priorities and situation" for 3 months rolling and 2 week either way cancel clause.

thats a kick in the teeth, get a few beers down you tonight and go again tomorrow.

[oliverson]

Yeah.. You know, I'm not seeing a lot of FTCs in my area. I've never been offered one, and only seen one or two in the wild.
I don't know how common they are really, but the are certainly a terrible deal. At least the couple I've clocked.

I've posted about my only permie interview ever.. not for me. Good on you for trying it on, I couldn't do it.
In addition to my massively inappropriate gabbling, the HR doofus actually asked me "If you were a bug, what sort of bug would you be?"
I wasn't cool about it, I gawped at him for a second then told him what an irrelevent question it was for a technical interview..

Just not cut out for permie roles.

Regarding inside vs outside, all the posters keep saying that outside roles are disappearing but I have found until recently the vast majority of the roles in my area are outside.
Now however, I'm seeing a bit of a shift towards inside.

Maybe because I'm getting old, but I don't have time for idiots either and it definitely comes across at interview....

Round about April or May time, I had a zoom call for a large firm with offices quite close by. They needed somebody to work on rearchitecting some backend code. First question out of the bag and screen shared. What was presented was a an ADO.NET stored procedure, the kind nobody has really written for 15+ years. I looked at the code and it was obviously open to SQL injection attacks. Then I asked the interviewer if this was their code and if the project required working with stored procedures, to which he replied negative on both counts. Then I asked him why he was asking me questions about technologies that the project doesn't require. Couldn't really answer it so moved onto question 2. This was a horrible lump of obfuscated javascript and within it reference to browser window. So I asked him why he was asking me a question on front-end development when this was a backend piece of work. No answer, so he moved onto question 3. I didn't even bother reading it and just called time on the interview, wishing them luck.

Maybe a few years ago, certainly pre-covid, I might not have been so aloof, I don't know. I just don't suffer fools gladly.