No To Retro Tax - Ongoing battle against S58 FA2008

[webberg]

i presume it goes without saying then that for those of us with CTDS we should put them up against the APNs asap as what is the point in delaying ?

how does that work do you know ? so if you have say a ctd for 40k and one apn for 25 and one for 20 can you put up a single ctd against the 2? or do they faff around and 'cash it in' as it were....

alos can you pay an APN 'without prejudice' ie if later the case wins you get your cash back?

Good question.

If the liability allegedly arises from say 2008 and has a due date of 31/1/09 (I'm simplifying) and you bought a CTD say 30/6/13, APN arrives with a due date of 30/6/14, what is the best order of use?

The CTD should stop interest arising on the 31/1/09 liability from 30/6/13. If it's used to pay the APN does that protection lapse? In that case, the APN as a payment on account will stop interest arising from the date of payment (30/6/15) and it's cost you two years interest. That can't be correct.

The usual way of using a CTD is to have a credit to your HMRC account which is then applied to the earliest liability first. An amount due under an APN normally appears as an amount under "dispute". The liability for the earlier year will not be showing as due (no assessment).

This has the potential of blowing the mind of the HMRC computer (and nobody in HMRC knows how that is programmed).

I'll make some enquiries and report back.

[elpinar]

I have sent my APN to Dawn and been told to wait for the validity of it. One thing I noticed was each years compilation it said I could get another APN for NIC that is not included on this bill. Did anyone else have that?

Also at what point is all lost legally by MTM? And then HMRC expect people to pay up. I am not referring to anything NTRT are doing, as people not in NTRT need to get their heads out off the sand and take note, as judgement day may be here quite soon.

the problem with all of this seems to me to be:-

APNs are new so arguably many fights to be fought on valididty, invalididty etc etc ..

But ...... bottom line .... if the fights dont go our way the penalities will be ours and ours alone .... not MTMS, Not NTRTs, ours in our names ......

so if you have a way to pay the APN you and you alone are risking adding 15% in penalities to your bill and you will have no control of the outcome of a future fight ergo .... whether or not those penalities may get added.

Personally .... if something were suspended i dont see how you could legitimately argue that by not paying you were in breach of the suspended thing .... and add the penalites

however, that said i also dont see how retrospecively 'clarifying' something so it changes the meaning enitrely can be done either ... so that just proves how much i know

In short ... the only certain thing in all of this... is the uncertainty of the possible outcomes ... so we each have to look at our own circumstances and decide for ourselves... as much as we can band togehter to fight the good fight .... the bills are for each us us individually

[webberg]

I have sent my APN to Dawn and been told to wait for the validity of it. One thing I noticed was each years compilation it said I could get another APN for NIC that is not included on this bill. Did anyone else have that?

Also at what point is all lost legally by MTM? And then HMRC expect people to pay up. I am not referring to anything NTRT are doing, as people not in NTRT need to get their heads out off the sand and take note, as judgement day may be here quite soon.

It depends on how the process is run. Most likely a test case is chosen, litigation begins at FTT and runs to Supreme Court (possibly ECJ).

The complication here is the Isle of Man and how they fit (or otherwise) the UK tax appeal system.

An expedited hearing process (I'm assuming this will happen as the new administration will want the cash) would see this process run its course no later than 2020.

[swede]

It depends on how the process is run. Most likely a test case is chosen, litigation begins at FTT and runs to Supreme Court (possibly ECJ).

The complication here is the Isle of Man and how they fit (or otherwise) the UK tax appeal system.

An expedited hearing process (I'm assuming this will happen as the new administration will want the cash) would see this process run its course no later than 2020.

Christ, most of us will be dead through stress (or collision with a train) by then!

[TheFlyer]

Paying with CTD's

i presume it goes without saying then that for those of us with CTDS we should put them up against the APNs asap as what is the point in delaying ?

how does that work do you know ? so if you have say a ctd for 40k and one apn for 25 and one for 20 can you put up a single ctd against the 2? or do they faff around and 'cash it in' as it were....

alos can you pay an APN 'without prejudice' ie if later the case wins you get your cash back?

Called HMRC and spoke with a very helpful person and I said to them my bill does not say how to pay with CTD's. They called me back with the CTD team address in Cumbernauld and said send the CTDs there and give them the payment reference to pay which is on your APN. Also ask for a receipt of payment to be sent back. A letter is coming out in the post to me as well confirming the address. So my advice is to photocopy your CTDs or scan them and email them to yourself, send them the originals with instructions of what payment references to use them against. Send it all recorded delivery and keep the receipt as prof you sent them. They will pay the APN and the issue date will be taken into account, if and when we have to pay up to offset any interest in the future. I said I will follow up next week if nothing in the post. So this is a relief, don't cash in the CTD as you need to send them to CTD team in Cumbernauld. Give it a couple of weeks after that and call the HMRC investigation team and make sure they got the payment.

My NIC APN as mentioned in my computation will be sent out at some date in the future as getting the income tax APNs out is what they are doing first.

[Britspud]

Called HMRC and spoke with a very helpful person and I said to them my bill does not say how to pay with CTD's. They called me back with the CTD team address in Cumbernauld and said send the CTDs there and give them the payment reference to pay which is on your APN. Also ask for a receipt of payment to be sent back. A letter is coming out in the post to me as well confirming the address. So my advice is to photocopy your CTDs or scan them and email them to yourself, send them the originals with instructions of what payment references to use them against. Send it all recorded delivery and keep the receipt as prof you sent them. They will pay the APN and the issue date will be taken into account, if and when we have to pay up to offset any interest in the future. I said I will follow up next week if nothing in the post. So this is a relief, don't cash in the CTD as you need to send them to CTD team in Cumbernauld. Give it a couple of weeks after that and call the HMRC investigation team and make sure they got the payment.

My NIC APN as mentioned in my computation will be sent out at some date in the future as getting the income tax APNs out is what they are doing first.

Hmmm this is going from bad to worse. NIC APNs???? When was this ever mentioned?? Why separate them??? W@nkers!

[TheFlyer]

Hmmm this is going from bad to worse. NIC APNs???? When was this ever mentioned?? Why separate them??? W@nkers!

Revenue chap said they forgot to add it to the original legislation and added it in last month. Said not expected to be that big. It is written on my APN to expect it.

[javadude]

Hmmm this is going from bad to worse. NIC APNs???? When was this ever mentioned?? Why separate them??? W@nkers!

And once things have run their course, if we loose, then interest too.

[Oakleyacc]

"George" argument & JR

I'm getting a little confused about the potential outcomes of the JR and the "George" argument with regard to paying APNs.

The NTRT Newsletter gave us considerable hope ( I think ) that with the "George" argument, we might not have to pay anything because HMRC are out of time. A meeting is still to be held with HMRC to discuss but so far we have counsel's opinion that if we went to FTTT, we would have a 75% chance of winning. This is not certain but is looking very good.

On the other hand there is the JR which Montpelier is mounting which may result in delaying the enforcement of the APNs but we may still have to pay the 5% penalties in the end if it doesn't go our way.

As a result of the uncertainty of the JR outcome, we are being encouraged to pay the APNs (if we are able) in order not to risk having the 5% penalties later. That makes sense.

However, from what I have read, it seems to me that the "George" argument is going to trump everything in which case we pay nothing.

Does the fact that we are being encouraged to pay the APNs (if we are able) mean that we are not so confident in the "George" argument after all or that it will take even longer to resolve than the JR ?

[cojak]

Really?

You're expecting an answer to this on a public forum?

Please remember DR and SC's instructions on speculating on the contents of the NTRT newsletter here...