No To Retro Tax - Ongoing battle against S58 FA2008

[Oakleyacc]

I deliberately didn't give any more information about the contents of the newsletter than had already been mentioned on this forum. I was careful not to do so.

I thought it was worth pointing out the apparent shift in recommendations which worried me and could well be worrying others who read this forum.

I'm not expecting to discuss anything in detail here for obvious reasons just questioning the shift. I'm sorry if you think it was improper to do so, I didn't mean to.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I'm getting a little confused about the potential outcomes of the JR and the "George" argument with regard to paying APNs.

The NTRT Newsletter gave us considerable hope ( I think ) that with the "George" argument, we might not have to pay anything because HMRC are out of time. A meeting is still to be held with HMRC to discuss but so far we have counsel's opinion that if we went to FTTT, we would have a 75% chance of winning. This is not certain but is looking very good.

On the other hand there is the JR which Montpelier is mounting which may result in delaying the enforcement of the APNs but we may still have to pay the 5% penalties in the end if it doesn't go our way.

As a result of the uncertainty of the JR outcome, we are being encouraged to pay the APNs (if we are able) in order not to risk having the 5% penalties later. That makes sense.

However, from what I have read, it seems to me that the "George" argument is going to trump everything in which case we pay nothing.

Does the fact that we are being encouraged to pay the APNs (if we are able) mean that we are not so confident in the "George" argument after all or that it will take even longer to resolve than the JR ?

(It's OK cojak there's nothing particularly sensitive here)

The George agency argument (TAA) may trump everything but it may not reach a conclusion before your APN is due for payment.

If you pay an APN then a successful outcome with TAA would mean you get the money refunded.

Paying an APN is not like settling. It just changes where the disputed money is held from your bank account to HMRC's bank account. Who gets to keep the money forever is dependent on the outcome of your tax appeal.

[elpinar]

[QUOTE=DonkeyRhubarb;2078611
Paying an APN is not like settling. It just changes where the disputed money is held from your bank account to HMRC's bank account. Who gets to keep the money forever is dependent on the outcome of your tax appeal.[/QUOTE]

Hence if you have a CTD you may as well use it now .... as its already sitting in an HMRC acount - so you may as well move it to the one that stops any penalties

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Hence if you have a CTD you may as well use it now .... as its already sitting in an HMRC acount - so you may as well move it to the one that stops any penalties

Indeed.

[lucozade]

(It's OK cojak there's nothing particularly sensitive here)

The George agency argument (TAA) may trump everything but it may not reach a conclusion before your APN is due for payment.

If you pay an APN then a successful outcome with TAA would mean you get the money refunded.

Paying an APN is not like settling. It just changes where the disputed money is held from your bank account to HMRC's bank account. Who gets to keep the money forever is dependent on the outcome of your tax appeal.

So if I'm correct, the order of events will be something like this.

---IF you get an APN and can pay it (via CTD or otherwise) then do so
---IF you get an APN and cannot pay it then you will just be hit with upto 15% of penalties over a 12 month period.

In the meantime MP will be launching a counter argument to the validity of the APN against the scheme PLUS possibly even a JR which may or may NOT suspend "things"

Furthermore, we will be using the George argument to stamp this nonsense into the ground once and for all. But the big question remains if we do go down the George argument will it suspend any penalties?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

So if I'm correct, the order of events will be something like this.

---IF you get an APN and can pay it (via CTD or otherwise) then do so
---IF you get an APN and cannot pay it then you will just be hit with upto 15% of penalties over a 12 month period.

In the meantime MP will be launching a counter argument to the validity of the APN against the scheme PLUS possibly even a JR which may or may NOT suspend "things"

Furthermore, we will be using the George argument to stamp this nonsense into the ground once and for all. But the big question remains if we do go down the George argument will it suspend any penalties?

I was about to say "spot on" until I read the last sentence.

APNs are entirely separate from everything else. If you don't pay them on time you incur penalties.

Even if you later win your tax appeal (using George) you won't get those penalties struck off.

[freeranger]

If you have a CTD that could pay some of the liability, would that reduce the amount of the penalty if you pay said CTD towards then APN in the 90 day period but not the full amount?

Also, presumably paying the CTD towards the APN reduces you ability to settle on the basis of "I'm skint guv" - ie "you've already shelled out for the CTD so I'm sure you could find some more money somewhere mr contractor?"

[Oakleyacc]

Thanks very much DR for clarifying ! I understand the position now. Cheers

[DonkeyRhubarb]

If you have a CTD that could pay some of the liability, would that reduce the amount of the penalty if you pay said CTD towards then APN in the 90 day period but not the full amount? Yes

Also, presumably paying the CTD towards the APN reduces you ability to settle on the basis of "I'm skint guv" - ie "you've already shelled out for the CTD so I'm sure you could find some more money somewhere mr contractor?"

HMRC don't settle with people because they're "skint". They will go down an enforcement route potentially ending in bankruptcy.

You can't hide a CTD, or any other asset, from HMRC. That's why they bankrupt people so they can get trustees to track down everything you've got.

[Kevthered]

Hope this isnt veering off the subject, and I don't know if this is the correct forum, but if you cannot pay all the APN but your wife/children/parents have money, can HMRC demand the money from them?
Also, following on, if you sell your house can HMRC demand all the money or only your percentage of the price?