Reply to: Recruiting

[northernladuk]

I would always hire the best person based on their CV and a quick chat to determine their level of expertise, and from what I can gleen about their character. Taking anything else into account it discriminating in my view.

Unless you have a budget to protect and bonus based on your budget. This add's another factor that isn't disciminatory but will tend to help certain candidates over others. That's just business.

[kandr]

I would always hire the best person based on their CV and a quick chat to determine their level of expertise, and from what I can gleen about their character. Taking anything else into account it discriminating in my view.

[d000hg]

I don't have a problem with individual Bobs (I use the name 'Bobs' as I don't think it's really offensive, more an amusing term of endearment); I have a problem with the working practices of the offshore software companies I've dealt with, AND with the modern habit of abolishing common sense and direct communication in favour of strictly controlled SLAs and channeling communication through managers with no in depth knowledge.

Hit the nail on the head there Mich. As you say, common sense hiring practices rather than trusting BobCorp to choose your team, are what's needed.

companies who think it's acceptable to bring someone here from overseas and then pay him a quarter of what is usual for people with the same skills over here ... based on a racist idea that somebody is worth only a quarter of a westerner due to his origins in a poorer country.

Here I disagree. Even with them paying more while living in the UK, back home money still stretches further... but you're right that individual Bobs who move to the EU/US of their own volition will be wanting comparable rates.

[cojak]

I also believe that the real racism is not coming from those who talk of 'Bobs' or those who oppose the arrival of low-paid replacements for western techies, but from those companies who think it's acceptable to bring someone here from overseas and then pay him a quarter of what is usual for people with the same skills over here; that's an exploitative relationship based on a racist idea that somebody is worth only a quarter of a westerner due to his origins in a poorer country. It's also racist to assume that Indians are stupid enough to carry on working for a pittance when they can also use google and find out what they would be earning if they happened to have an EU nationality.

As some recent newbies have been asking over in Business/Contracts.

[suityou01]

Got this in my mail box this morning

PCG today welcomed the news that the immigration system is to face its biggest overhaul for more than a decade. Theresa May, the Home Secretary, is expected to announce full details of the Coalition Government’s new immigration policy this afternoon in the House of Commons.

The Government is expected to make radical changes to the rules on intra-company transfers (ICTs), which PCG has been campaigning on for many years. It is expected that workers on these permits must earn more than £40,000 in salary to sit outside the Government’s proposed ‘cap’ in immigration.

“PCG welcomes and strongly supports the Home Secretary’s new measures on these permits. We have been campaigning on this issue for many years to no avail and these new rules represent a huge change in the status quo. A minimum salary of £40,000 is a massive increase, where previously ICTs were often being accepted into the UK on half this salary, undercutting UK IT contractors. This will ensure freelancers really do have fair access to the market for their services. Whilst we are of course awaiting further exact details on how this will work, this policy is a big and significant win for PCG. The UK Borders Agency have clearly listened to our evidence and taken it on board”

[fullyautomatix]

Looking at some of the comments left in the negative reps, leads me to conclude that this board is riddled with non-EU immigrants

I still cannot see why it is such a problem to people to give UK born talent preference in this role,& if only industry and even the Government would adopt the same stance this country and our IT industry would be in a better position

If I cannot find UK then happy to widen to the EU, and I find it hard to believe that out of a working population of 225 million I would be unable to find someone suitable - yes I know there are UK & EU personnel that are no good & I have come across a few over the years; usually as contractors they didn't last long - but I put that down to poor interview techniques on the hirer rather than a flaw in the logic of using home grown talent first

True I may miss an oustanding talent from outside the EU but that would be an acceptable price for not having to filter through thousands of cvs from ex University of Bangalore / Lagos candidates

From speaking to agents I know the flooding of applications on Jobserve with unsuitable candidates has become a very real problem & something I want to avoid

IIRC there was a thread on this board complaining about jobserve adverts that specified Indian Nationals - & I certainly didn't see the same level of furore over that!

Finally to all you immigrants that neg rep me over this

Well, its your ( or your employer) money and you are entitled to throw it at whoever you choose to. If you do not like a particular nationality and think that you cannot have a workable relationship with them , it is your prerogative to choose someone you can work with.

In fact, despite what many have said in this thread, many many companies in the UK follow this principle.

How many companies based in the city have a receptionist who is not good looking ? Surely, they all hire someone based on looks and not ability.

Discrimination is part and parcel of recruitment and we should all learn to deal with it.

[Mich the Tester]

What I have found is that the best results come from where the user and the developer are close together, can work co-operatively and don't have some commercial contract sat between them that neither of them had anything to do with. We seemed to get somewhere near this towards the end of the 90s before people decided that because we could get electronic messages between them then it wouold be a good idea to put thousands of miles between them and plonk them in different time zones and put commercial and cultural barriers in front of them as well. This is also compounded by the introduction of a load of sh*t processes and controls introduced in an attempt to commoditise the whole process.

WHS

I don't have a problem with individual Bobs (I use the name 'Bobs' as I don't think it's really offensive, more an amusing term of endearment); I have a problem with the working practices of the offshore software companies I've dealt with, AND with the modern habit of abolishing common sense and direct communication in favour of strictly controlled SLAs and channeling communication through managers with no in depth knowledge. In this respect, both clientcos and their offshore outsourcing 'partners' are to blame.

I also believe that the real racism is not coming from those who talk of 'Bobs' or those who oppose the arrival of low-paid replacements for western techies, but from those companies who think it's acceptable to bring someone here from overseas and then pay him a quarter of what is usual for people with the same skills over here; that's an exploitative relationship based on a racist idea that somebody is worth only a quarter of a westerner due to his origins in a poorer country. It's also racist to assume that Indians are stupid enough to carry on working for a pittance when they can also use google and find out what they would be earning if they happened to have an EU nationality.

[NotAllThere]

Troll is living up to his name and now complaining about getting bad rep.

I wouldn't have a problem with an ad specifying British Nationals only. But the legal wording is, IIRC, "must have the right to live and work in the UK".

I recruited my replacement when I was a permie manager in 2001. Couldn't get any decent applicants from the UK or the EU. Eventually was persuaded to interview a chap from India, who would need a visa etc. He was brilliant, so we took him on. When I was chatting to ex-colleagues a few years later, they were saying that he really delivered and was a throughly decent bloke.

And yes, I do deal with the off-shore numpties on a regular basis.

[d000hg]

Sory Troll, just because people disagree doesn't mean they're immigrants. However we're all a bit confused what you meant originally... first post reads you don't want crap applicants simply because they're crap, now we're talking about which countries are OK.

Is this a skills thing or a race thing? Because your comment about EU people being OK but non-EU not is nonsensical. Estonia, Poland and Romania are in the EU and they are normally lumped in with India as cheap resources.

[Troll]

Looking at some of the comments left in the negative reps, leads me to conclude that this board is riddled with non-EU immigrants

I still cannot see why it is such a problem to people to give UK born talent preference in this role,& if only industry and even the Government would adopt the same stance this country and our IT industry would be in a better position

If I cannot find UK then happy to widen to the EU, and I find it hard to believe that out of a working population of 225 million I would be unable to find someone suitable - yes I know there are UK & EU personnel that are no good & I have come across a few over the years; usually as contractors they didn't last long - but I put that down to poor interview techniques on the hirer rather than a flaw in the logic of using home grown talent first

True I may miss an oustanding talent from outside the EU but that would be an acceptable price for not having to filter through thousands of cvs from ex University of Bangalore / Lagos candidates

From speaking to agents I know the flooding of applications on Jobserve with unsuitable candidates has become a very real problem & something I want to avoid

IIRC there was a thread on this board complaining about jobserve adverts that specified Indian Nationals - & I certainly didn't see the same level of furore over that!

Finally to all you immigrants that neg rep me over this

[Bob The Drummer]

which law (specifically)

The Race Relations Act 1976 and the so-called Race Regulations 2003 would be good places to start your further research.

[minestrone]

Did you even read the OP?

He is happy to take anyone born in the EU. (yeah, I was surprised too)

Well that is us. Sadly.

The us I was mentioning was the board

[Pondlife]

"British jobs for British workers" was just a Gordon Brown quote I threw in to see if anyone was listening to the immigration debate going on for the last 10 years. I think you might have missed most of it.

You should be applauding this guy for coming on here and offering a job up to us and saying that he does not want to give it to an Indian.

I applaud you Troll (ya English bastard)

Did you even read the OP?

He is happy to take anyone born in the EU. (yeah, I was surprised too)

[OwlHoot]

Can't you say "Applicants must be of Ayran race, have a healthy distrust of all things Jewish and aspire to World domination."

Er, didn't the original Aryans came from what is now India and Pakistan?

As I dare say most muslims from round there, and possibly Hindu nationalists too, have a "healthy distrust" of all things Jewish, and they all aspire to (economic) World domination, you'd be snowed under with Bob applicants.

[minestrone]

That's not the original point at all. According to the OP, Troll was quite happy to take European migrants.

The OP was specifically not wanting Indian or Nigerian born applicants regardless of thier education, heritage or suitability. It was not about British jobs for British workers.

"British jobs for British workers" was just a Gordon Brown quote I threw in to see if anyone was listening to the immigration debate going on for the last 10 years. I think you might have missed most of it.

You should be applauding this guy for coming on here and offering a job up to us and saying that he does not want to give it to an Indian.

I applaud you Troll (ya English bastard)