Reply to: Hydrogen fuelled combustion engine

[DoctorStrangelove]

I want a time travelling DeLorian powered by Mr Fusion.

We should have had that by now according to the documentary.

[ladymuck]

I want my next car to be a maglev one.

[d000hg]

A mate who is not just rabidly green (supports XR and all that) but also an engineer in this sector points when people argue EVs are a passing phase, that while hydrogen might be the future it certainly isn't the present; the lack of tech and infrastructure means we have to take whatever alternative to petrol we can find right now. If you believe things are on such a knife edge as we are told, he has a point.

[vetran]

Hydrogen needs a renewable and predictable energy source.
One that isn't frequent enough for baseline power generation.
Tidal power is conveniently located near water. Is completely predictable. And not much use for baseline power as it is a 10-hour cycle so not much use for anything other than being stored.
Also..... Petrol refinement plants are already located in these sorts of places so you have storage and transport links ready to go.

This makes more sense than electric cars with an unpredictable energy requirement that needs to be available close to the car.

Solar & wind varies far more than tidal having a variable load is far better than shutting them down when the grid can't cope.

I suppose it comes down to what fits the best, high demand like trains are already using Hydrogen if its less environmentally expensive to use Hydrogen then it Hydrogen , petrol its petrol. We know electric cars take a lot to repay their manufacture so either green petrol or green hydrogen may be less environmentally costly.

[Lance]

Hydrogen needs a renewable and predictable energy source.
One that isn't frequent enough for baseline power generation.
Tidal power is conveniently located near water. Is completely predictable. And not much use for baseline power as it is a 10-hour cycle so not much use for anything other than being stored.
Also..... Petrol refinement plants are already located in these sorts of places so you have storage and transport links ready to go.

This makes more sense than electric cars with an unpredictable energy requirement that needs to be available close to the car.

[d000hg]

Isn't hydrogen the one that goes kaboom?

Unlike petrol?

[Paddy]

Peaks in energy usage can be levelled by switching excess capacity to generating hydrogen.

Currently the grid spin up power stations to supply peaks as having excess power sent to the grid can fry it. The classic example is they spin up coal fired stations for the Eastenders/Corrie cuppa - thousands of kettles going on for tea in the interval they would use cleaner nuclear but they take too long to spin up so effectively end up as too expensive for a short burst.

I'm having a read about this; it may not be true with all nuclear power stations. The newer ones seem to be able to control output better that coal and oil. I will post again when I get more facts.

[Whorty]

Peaks in energy usage can be levelled by switching excess capacity to generating hydrogen.

Currently the grid spin up power stations to supply peaks as having excess power sent to the grid can fry it. The classic example is they spin up coal fired stations for the Eastenders/Corrie cuppa - thousands of kettles going on for tea in the interval they would use cleaner nuclear but they take too long to spin up so effectively end up as too expensive for a short burst.

I did not know that

[OwlHoot]

Seems you can store shedloads of hydrogen in aromatic Iridium sandwiches using formic acid as an intermediary:

.. The resulting iridium compound is an organometallic “half-sandwich complex.” The “bread” is a ring of five or six atoms of carbon that can have various extensions attached (these structures are known as “aromatic rings” even though they do not always have an odor). The “meat” is the iridium atom. A full-sandwich complex consists of two such rings with a metal atom in between.

These iridium half sandwiches can combine carbon dioxide and hydrogen to store the fuel as a safe intermediate—formic acid—and then break apart that intermediate to regenerate hydrogen. Even better, they are capable of running the reaction both ways at room temperature. “A reversible catalytic system that could store hydrogen as formic acid and release it when you need it, and store it back again using CO₂, that could be really useful,” Bowring says.

That’s an understatement. The Japanese chemists who filed a patent application for the catalysts described them as “epoch-making.”

Iridium sandwiches significantly reduce the amount of energy required to generate hydrogen and make it possible to store the fuel in the form of the relatively benign formic acid. As an added bonus, one of the feedstocks for the process is carbon dioxide. ..

[Mordac]

Isn't hydrogen the one that goes kaboom?

It does when you make an atomic bomb out of it, but that's now considered outdated technology...

[vetran]

Right. Free energy. Got it.

So what happens when off-peak capacity is being used for fuel production...?

Peaks in energy usage can be levelled by switching excess capacity to generating hydrogen.

Currently the grid spin up power stations to supply peaks as having excess power sent to the grid can fry it. The classic example is they spin up coal fired stations for the Eastenders/Corrie cuppa - thousands of kettles going on for tea in the interval they would use cleaner nuclear but they take too long to spin up so effectively end up as too expensive for a short burst.

[malvolio]

Right. Free energy. Got it.

So what happens when off-peak capacity is being used for fuel production...?

[vetran]

Good, an alternative to electricity...

Hang on, how do you make hydrogen.

With reusable and surplus energy.

One problem the grid has is uneven loads, hydrogen production can act as a variable load getting power generation into their sweet spots.

You could run wind or nuclear at a high level for the peaks but generate green hydrogen instead of ramping up and down.

[malvolio]

Good, an alternative to electricity...

Hang on, how do you make hydrogen.

[DaveB]

The F1 teams are actively looking into Hydrogen fuelled engines to replace petrol now. Wont happen for a while but it's where they want to go.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57842205