Reply to: Need a rant: not got a contract due to positive discrimination

[Paddy]

Lamborghini isn't Welsh

[Whorty]

In English?

[SueEllen]

In English?

[northernladuk]

Turned down as I'm not a Welsh speaker.

I'm a proud Welshman, got the tattoo and everything

In English?

[northernladuk]

I agree, but lack of English is not a disability, would a able bodied person with no English get the job? Thing is if she could read and write English she could interact with the majority of her case load via a tablet etc, a sign translator only for those who can't get back. Because its meant to be reasonable adjustment.

And that's fair but are there not a few jobs require excellent spoken English as a key part of the role. Could be anything from doctors to first line call handlers. Surely a level of poor english or ability to communicate has to count against you in roles such as that as it's a key aspect of the job? I'm talking bad English that's difficult to understand or is not crystal clear so potentially not being able to achieve the outcome of the interaction? English as a second language on the whole isn't a problem just the odd case for the odd role. I'm sure we've all come across it.

Surely in cases such as this you aren't discriminating against minorities or less able people if that level of English is the reason for a rejection? It's a blocker that would apply to anyone, including txt spkrs and massivly thick UK accents? I'm guessing no one in this day and age would be in their right minds would say no for the fear of reprisal though?

[Paralytic]

I agree, but lack of English is not a disability

Give it a year or so - i'm sure someone will manage to win a court case, proving otherwise.

[Gibbon]

In the name of diversity? Or because providing jobs to people willing to work is a desirable thing?

Either we embrace people not working and pay them for it. Or we help them work despite their disabilities. Can't have it both ways.

I agree, but lack of English is not a disability, would a able bodied person with no English get the job? Thing is if she could read and write English she could interact with the majority of her case load via a tablet etc, a sign translator only for those who can't get back. Because its meant to be reasonable adjustment.

[Paddy]

In the name of diversity? Or because providing jobs to people willing to work is a desirable thing?

Either we embrace people not working and pay them for it. Or we help them work despite their disabilities. Can't have it both ways.

Not the point. Applicants should be fit for purpose. If their job is to interact with the public then they should be capable of doing so not to the exclusion of others.

[Lance]

Example 2: A London Borough employs a Deaf African Emigrant non English speaking in a social services role. The council had to employ and full time sign language translator to go around with her and to do all her computer inputs and letter typing. All in the name of diversity.

In the name of diversity? Or because providing jobs to people willing to work is a desirable thing?

Either we embrace people not working and pay them for it. Or we help them work despite their disabilities. Can't have it both ways.

[northernladuk]

EDIT: Removed name of gov organisation in Central London. There are some very good and very efficient minorities working there however, the majority cannot put together an English sentence and are poorly educated and inefficient. Most times it's impossible to understand what they are talking about.

Example 2: A London Borough employs a Deaf African Emigrant non English speaking in a social services role. The council had to employ and full time sign language translator to go around with her and to do all her computer inputs and letter typing. All in the name of diversity.

To be fair I've done two stints with a large public body and they spent a lot of time and effort into accessibility and diversity which I think is to be applauded. They had a disproportionally high number of people that benefitted from accessibility software or diversity processes than any private gig I've been in but they could all do their jobs without complaining so fair play. Maybe the translator is pushing the boundaries but if they can still do their job then fairs fair.

I didn't have the experience that it was a large number of minorities that were useless as per your example 1 but they were most certainly there and irked everyone. We had a few who definitely fell in to that category. I don't get how you can pass an interview where you have to demonstrate your skills and prove you are better than the next person when you can't communicate clearly and are obviously not up to the job in general, regardless of other factors. Maybe see past the language barrier and look at the capabilities of the person behind it but a few members of staff missed that mark by a wide margin. Sadly, these few were also the ones that used discrimination/complaint processes to their advantages as well so were virtually un-manageable. How they got their jobs is an utter mystery.

All that said I've also seen plenty of people without any of those barriers that were utterly useless as well so don't think you can pin the problems directly to diversity or positive discrimination.

Used properly and sparingly I can see positive discrimination processes can break down barriers that hold back perfectly capable people who might be different to the interviewer but it can also go too far and be used to get the wrong people in who simply can't do the job. You could argue it's the interview process and the actual interviewers that are more of a problem than the candidate but positive discrimination used to quosh all the basic requirements of a role is a step too far.

[Paddy]

You can bet your bottom dollar it is and will be at more and more places, particularly public sector. Equal opportunities is not longer is.

EDIT: Removed name of gov organisation in Central London. There are some very good and very efficient minorities working there however, the majority cannot put together an English sentence and are poorly educated and inefficient. Most times it's impossible to understand what they are talking about.

Example 2: A London Borough employs a Deaf African Emigrant non English speaking in a social services role. The council had to employ and full time sign language translator to go around with her and to do all her computer inputs and letter typing. All in the name of diversity.

[northernladuk]

Transport For London have been doing this for years. Joke was that based on their Equal Opportunities Pre screening you needed to be a disabled, jewish catholic lesbian polysexual transexual vegan to get an interview let alone a job or contract there.
I am not sure if that is still the case.

You can bet your bottom dollar it is and will be at more and more places, particularly public sector. Equal opportunities is not longer is.

[psychocandy]

Went for a role which I was absolutely qualified for on all counts.
Turned down as I'm not a Welsh speaker.
This has nothing to do with the role which doesn't require Welsh but is due to the Welsh Governments insistence on all employees having at least conversational level Welsh (they call it 'courtesy level').
As the role is Outside IR35 the role isn't for an employee and the Welsh speaking status of the successful candidate shouldn't be a part of the awarding process; but I guess the Taffia Rule in the Welsh Gov .

As an aside, does anti-discrimination laws apply to contract awarding? I feel I could make a case that I'm not a Welsh speaker due to my age (which is protected characteristic) as Welsh wasn't offered as an option when I was in school as it is now....any ideas?

Rant over....cheers

Dwi ddim yn siarad Cwmraeg

[courtg9000]

Transport For London have been doing this for years. Joke was that based on their Equal Opportunities Pre screening you needed to be a disabled, jewish catholic lesbian polysexual transexual vegan to get an interview let alone a job or contract there.
I am not sure if that is still the case.

[NigelJK]

And neither side mentioned that the real reason for it is that over 20 years ago the Welsh assembly made Welsh the first language in all it's schools in order to raise the number of speakers of it. Currently less than 6% of Welsh people speak it.

Note: This aural diarrhoea was being emitted when I was eating my lunch. The missus likes the radio on for some reason.