Reply to: CV Format

[willendure]

ATS is the real pain in the bum here for the candidate.

That is essentially what I am trying to say. You need to navigate the same process sure, but having to get your CV past AI to even have a chance of being seen by a human is a hard constraint to satisfy. Because if it isn't a perfect match, it won't come out ahead of the other 1000 cvs they got sent.

[courtg9000]

Writing a CV for todays market is tough. Here is how I view what a CV is trying to accomplish.

A CV is like an elaborate key, elaborate because its trying to unlock a process that has become very highly elaborate and specific in itself.

A CV needs to get through ATS AI screen, so needs to be a laundry list of buzzwords and skills that tick ALL the boxes.
A CV needs to get through the hands of a recruitment agent. Often of variable quality that understand little about the work actually being contracted. They too might reformat and edit the document, spoiling your efforts.
A CV needs to get through HR, that might pick holes in things, such as gaps in work and so on. Again they don't understand the work and might not be generous when matching "Docker" against "containerization" for example. Laundry list needed.
A CV needs to talk to the hiring manager and their underlings. They need the right person, relevant skills and experience, but here a laundry list isn't going to work. You need to sell yourself as the right person for the role, the right background and fit, make yourself stand out from the crowd.
A CV needs to provide evidence. Yet people are looking for cutting edge skills that barely exist in the market. You need to show your skills are transferable in the face of an audience that will not be generous in making that leap. You need to play up the skills you have to have a glimmer of a chance, but should not tell any lies.
The number of possible IT skills, and combinations into tech stacks has grown explosively, no one knows it all, yet you feel compelled to portray yourself both as a master of the domain, and possessing the exact experience and skills a role is looking for.
But you need to portray yourself at the same time as a person, that brings value, experience and wisdom, knows how to get a job done, and not a laundry list.

So there are so many conflicting requirements on what goes into this ticket. It makes it very hard to even begin to know what the right angle is. And every candidate is going to have a right angle to approach them on.

So go wide, apply for lots of things to increase your chances. But now you could spend 4 hours tailoring the perfect CV, send it in, only for AI to reject it. Or worse, just silence. Or some idiot that gets in touch on LinkedIn then ghosts you. Gen Z that don't know how to answer a phone.

Does that sum up the challenge we face ?

To be fair similar has happened previously. You would send a cv to a particular agent who not to put too fine a point on it had failed his KS1 reading, writing, maths and phonics (probably didnt even go to school after KS1! and his english and common sense GCSE's. There were a lot of them out there back then and they are still around now. The only difference is that ChatGpt is making them appear more intelligent than they actually are.

HR have never been that bright either and its now the same thing. The only thing ChatGPT cant really do is tell a junior girlie in HR to go and do some actual work when she starts asking questions about nail polish!

Ask yourself: How did you handle the dumb HR droid when they asked the stupid question in the "HR interview" back in 1999?

Ask yourself: "what did I do with that iffy agent back in 1999 who was more stupid Keir Starmer is? There you have answered half the question.

Ask Yourself: "How did I handle the hiring manager who asked the dumbo questions back in 1999?

ATS is the real pain in the bum here for the candidate. Its giving HR and hiring managers seemingly less work to do. That's the big hurdle to jump. The rest is just reimagining the 1999 approach with the new tech available.

I wrote a blog a while back where I asked ChatGPT to butcher my cv that ChatGPT had created itself to get me at least an interview for a CEO role I would be absolutely hopeless at. (It was the CEO of the Human Trafficking Foundation, to save you asking).

Another nugget from my time in recruitment was the number of people back then (2015) saying "my LinkedIn profile is my CV!" - That always made me chortle. Trust me hiring managers were not buying that back then and HR would have had the biggest hissy fit ever. Things might have changed in 11 years and HR and hiring managers might accept LinkedIn profiles now. Personally I think its risky.

So it is actually both sides of the wire. It was always thus.

Agents, HR and Hiring managers want to do as little work as possible and as soon as they see a tool that will help them do less work than the present they will openly embrace it. It was the same in 1999. Its the same now.

Contractors want contracts as they want to work, earn loadsamoney and bring home the bacon, spend money on fancy german motor cars, good booze and expensive holidays. In 1999 they had ways of doing it, there are probably still ways of doing it.

As I get older a funny thing strikes me about contractors, as one I dealt in change a lot, we all know what a change request is, we all know what they do and why we need them, its to make changes, but a lot of contractors almost seem "fire resistant" to changing themselves, changing processes such as this for example.
Sometimes if it ain't broke don't fix it is the answer - sometimes not.
Sometimes history can give us half the answer!

[WTFH]

Writing a CV for todays market is tough. Here is how I view what a CV is trying to accomplish.

...
Does that sum up the challenge we face ?

Nope, that reads like someone got AI to write it for them.


It used to be that contractors knew their agents, spoke to them, dealt with them, and got work that way.
When I read all this about "getting past an AI bot who is hoping you used the same AI bot to write your CV and to do your job", and that you never start by speaking to a recruiter, you're dead in the water.
If you're just scatter-gun sending your cv to everyone where there's a job description that matches an AI generated search you've created, you're just in the queue with the hundreds of others doing the same.

[willendure]

Writing a CV for todays market is tough. Here is how I view what a CV is trying to accomplish.

A CV is like an elaborate key, elaborate because its trying to unlock a process that has become very highly elaborate and specific in itself.

A CV needs to get through ATS AI screen, so needs to be a laundry list of buzzwords and skills that tick ALL the boxes.
A CV needs to get through the hands of a recruitment agent. Often of variable quality that understand little about the work actually being contracted. They too might reformat and edit the document, spoiling your efforts.
A CV needs to get through HR, that might pick holes in things, such as gaps in work and so on. Again they don't understand the work and might not be generous when matching "Docker" against "containerization" for example. Laundry list needed.
A CV needs to talk to the hiring manager and their underlings. They need the right person, relevant skills and experience, but here a laundry list isn't going to work. You need to sell yourself as the right person for the role, the right background and fit, make yourself stand out from the crowd.
A CV needs to provide evidence. Yet people are looking for cutting edge skills that barely exist in the market. You need to show your skills are transferable in the face of an audience that will not be generous in making that leap. You need to play up the skills you have to have a glimmer of a chance, but should not tell any lies.
The number of possible IT skills, and combinations into tech stacks has grown explosively, no one knows it all, yet you feel compelled to portray yourself both as a master of the domain, and possessing the exact experience and skills a role is looking for.
But you need to portray yourself at the same time as a person, that brings value, experience and wisdom, knows how to get a job done, and not a laundry list.

So there are so many conflicting requirements on what goes into this ticket. It makes it very hard to even begin to know what the right angle is. And every candidate is going to have a right angle to approach them on.

So go wide, apply for lots of things to increase your chances. But now you could spend 4 hours tailoring the perfect CV, send it in, only for AI to reject it. Or worse, just silence. Or some idiot that gets in touch on LinkedIn then ghosts you. Gen Z that don't know how to answer a phone.

Does that sum up the challenge we face ?

[willendure]

Yeah, first half page that is the critical part.

Assuming you actually get as far as a human being looking at your CV, they aren't going to look any further if its not a hit on the first half page.

[budgetastronaut]

For contracting, I think the main thing is still: short profile, key skills near the top, then recent roles with clear project details, and outcomes. Two or three pages are fine if the experience is relevant. I wouldn’t change a format that has worked for 20 years just because Canva-style templates are everywhere now. I’d just improve the layout a bit, remove clutter, and make sure the first half page sells you quickly.

[TheDude]

For a CV, I'd consolidate the entries. For compliance, I would always ask what level of detail is required and provide that separately.

I have provided exact dates for compliance but they can be a bit funny

[ladymuck]

If you had three contracts with the same end client over two years with a month or two between them would you list them separately on your CV or lump them in one section?

I did the later and am anticipating some questions from compliance screening for my new role even though I don't think I have misrepresent myself.

The way I see it my CV is for companies to assess my skills and experience - not to provide a precise list of my whereabouts

For a CV, I'd consolidate the entries. For compliance, I would always ask what level of detail is required and provide that separately.

[TheDude]

If you had three contracts with the same end client over two years with a month or two between them would you list them separately on your CV or lump them in one section?

I did the later and am anticipating some questions from compliance screening for my new role even though I don't think I have misrepresent myself.

The way I see it my CV is for companies to assess my skills and experience - not to provide a precise list of my whereabouts

[courtg9000]

About 10/11 years ago I spent a little time in recruitment. Most audacious CV I ever received was 2 words apart from the guy's name and those words were "Google Me" in size 30 ish font!
I never placed him and i'm not sure anyone else did either! But if he got a job from it then it worked.
Truth told, there are probably no wrong answers in any of the responses here apart from my example. If it gets you income, use it, if it doesn't then change it.
I got AI to do me a generic CV, a 2 pager a while back. I'm quite happy with the output. Fairly standard, not too out there. I've not had a chance to use it yet and I may not need to use it.
Interesting to see the full AI process outlined though. Love the ATS compliance check. I think that will help a lot of people.

[willendure]

PDF or Docx doesnt matter as these days, if its PDF the agent will just right click and open it in word, export it into docx then upload it into Google Gemini and ask it to rewrite the CV to their own template.

I hope not - all that work I put into make a beatiful looking PDF and they ruin it in Word !! But yes, quite often they do.

If I get an interview I used to take along a printed copy and had it to the interviewer, for vid conf I just send them the file, and pull it on screen at some point too. Would make sense to even make a nice looking HTML summary to bring on screen and so on.

I am also automating the whole process with AI like you.

[gables]

My CV hasn't changed format since 1993, it now gets updated with each new role and skills\tech etc. I'm one of those 5+ pages, 7 to be exact. I figure the recruiter doesn't have to read all of it, the most important and recent bits are in the first 3 pages. Also it's not like we fax them across anymore so keeping it short to reduce the pages seems irrelevant. And I figure if the CV is first filtered using ATS\AI then might as well bung it everything.

Page one is contact details, qualifications, knowledge and skills summary bullet points - currently 10 of them, doesn't generally get much bigger and a Personal statement which I edit to suit the role.

Pages 2-7 details all the roles\jobs (permie and contract) I've had with reducing details the older they are, with my 5 oldest roles just being date, who it was with, and role title.

Can't say whether it has held me back as I do seem to land interviews with just a few applications. I'm pretty old as you might have guessed.

[Bluenose]

What CV format or template do people use today ?

I have been using the same template for 20 years, little old skool, but has worked well for me.

I am seeing so many different funky variants out there and wonder if my format has become outdated and I need to use a more update format ?

Ta

put it into Claude, set it to Opus 4.8 Max, give it a one paragraph description of who you are and what type of job or contract you want and what rate. throw it your CV, ask for a ATS compliance check and an end to end review and re-write with a limit of 4 pages. Tell it to not include any email, phone or linked in address, rate details (edit to suit) and add those manually at the end.

When you get a bite throw it (Claude Opus) the JD and any other information you have about the role from the Agent and tell Claude to re-roll your CV with the 4 page version and the older, longer version.

PDF or Docx doesnt matter as these days, if its PDF the agent will just right click and open it in word, export it into docx then upload it into Google Gemini and ask it to rewrite the CV to their own template.

[sadkingbilly]

I can't remember when i was last asked for a CV.
'are you available'? is the usual question.

[WTFH]

PDF (that way any intermediary will find it a smidgen more difficult for them to edit)
I know that's a flippant answer, but in reality, I've not changed the format in years. A summary paragraph about me, skills and experience, and then details about recent clients/projects, but not every detail on every project. Older projects are either left off, or summarised at the end of that section. Finally there's contact details for referees - a couple of end clients and a consultant.
Wording will get tweaked for certain roles, and I sometimes choose different referees, but 90% of it stays the same.
It's only ever been agents who have asked me to change the format of my CV - and that has normally been to fit their template with their logos, etc.
I've had agents ask me to re-write so that it emphasised certain key words, but I don't think my CV has stopped me getting interviews, so I've no plans to change it.