Reply to: State of the Market

[ensignia]

If you're a single / one of a few "contractors" at a client doing long stints I very much doubt hmrc will ever see this / care. They seem to go after large clients were loads of people do "contracting" when in fact they are all permies, the chance of winning something there are larger as there's simply more people affected (especially as you can threat the client with massive costs and they will bail).

I know a few people who went perm to "outside" at the same client, worked like this for years, then closes their ltds and had zero problems. You'd think they would get spotted straight away, especially when closing their ltd as that's the moment to do an overview, but perhaps that's also automated and not one person gives a tulip?

I'm still waiting for all those contractors who rolled over to permanent roles post-2020 doing the exact same thing they were doing as contractors for years to be investigated by HMRC

The doom-mongerers on here were absolutely adamant that HMRC had them in their sights, along with those who closed companies and then reopened a year later when they got OIR35 contracts. I'm working with two such contractors now, and neither of them knew about that rule nor particularly cared when I told them.

[northernladuk]

Must admit I'm very nervous now. Been virtually end to end for last 10 years. Long'ish story but...

Was 5 weeks out of gig last year and got a big messy business re-org gig. Ended but they gave me a 6 weeks notice. Took all 6 weeks to find something, another big re-org. In both those stints it was very dry. I just got an alert from jobserve which I'd forgotten to turn off but its the first one I've had in three weeks. Granted I have a rather tight criteria on the alert but still, three weeks of nothing. Even the one that pinged wasn't suitable. I do ignore all inside gigs with north to south commute for obvious reasons so looking back I've been very very lucky with these two gigs. I can't rely on big re-orgs for end to end work.

Going to put all my alerts back on just to keep an eye on the market but I say I've been lucky to get these two and if I hadn't I'd have struggled badly. Counting every day billing as a blessing at the moment and dreading the end of this one. Strange times.

[Bluenose]

This years April bounce doest seem to have been as strong or long as last years.

I don't think there was one, it's too early to write off the entire year but the UK economy is on life support.

[jamesbrown]

If you're a single / one of a few "contractors" at a client doing long stints I very much doubt hmrc will ever see this / care. They seem to go after large clients were loads of people do "contracting" when in fact they are all permies, the chance of winning something there are larger as there's simply more people affected (especially as you can threat the client with massive costs and they will bail).

I know a few people who went perm to "outside" at the same client, worked like this for years, then closes their ltds and had zero problems. You'd think they would get spotted straight away, especially when closing their ltd as that's the moment to do an overview, but perhaps that's also automated and not one person gives a tulip?

Agree for two reasons, both the reason you state (the most important reason) and because longevity has always been a weak pointer (requiring a change in WPs to become part and parcel). Since the introduction of Chapter 10, the incentive to police companies that use a large number of contractors is much stronger because WPs will be correlated across those contractors and the ROI is much higher. Target the weak spot that connects many contractors. This is why HMRC is simultaneously pursuing Chapter 9 (another route to pursuing many contractors at once where the accountant/MSCP is the weak spot). The only exception is likely to be high profile individuals, such as TV personalities, where there's a good ROI in terms of publicity. This is all completely logical.

[dsc]

Had a chat to someone today who has done 14 years at same client! Half in and half out.
May as well carve your GPS coordinates on the Revenue head office windows!

Lots of people returning to old clients (direct, not using agents) having tasted the waters outside and found them to be cold, murky and full of sharks!

If you're a single / one of a few "contractors" at a client doing long stints I very much doubt hmrc will ever see this / care. They seem to go after large clients were loads of people do "contracting" when in fact they are all permies, the chance of winning something there are larger as there's simply more people affected (especially as you can threat the client with massive costs and they will bail).

I know a few people who went perm to "outside" at the same client, worked like this for years, then closes their ltds and had zero problems. You'd think they would get spotted straight away, especially when closing their ltd as that's the moment to do an overview, but perhaps that's also automated and not one person gives a tulip?

[hungry_hog]

Had a chat to someone today who has done 14 years at same client! Half in and half out.
May as well carve your GPS coordinates on the Revenue head office windows!

Lots of people returning to old clients (direct, not using agents) having tasted the waters outside and found them to be cold, murky and full of sharks!

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Once companies work out how much they are being ripped off for Cloud hosting/compared to the performance they are getting they'll be all going back to on premise in next 1/2 years so lots of work there.

qh

The accountants running the show don't care how much it costs as long as someone can give them a 3/5 year figure for it - hence cloud everything.

ETA

Of course a lot of enterprise systems like Workday aren't available as on-premise apps.

[quackhandle]

You clearly haven't experienced how much money companies can waste with on-premise kit to change their mind a year later.

Although I do agree on paper on-premise should be cheaper than cloud. Like a permanent employee should be cheaper than a contractor.

With over twenty years in this contracting game I think I have.

qh

[quackhandle]

My post was 11% sarcasm, 80% tongue-in-cheek and 9% butterscotch ripple.

qh

[Hairlocks]

Once companies work out how much they are being ripped off for Cloud hosting/compared to the performance they are getting they'll be all going back to on premise in next 1/2 years so lots of work there.

qh

You clearly haven't experienced how much money companies can waste with on-premise kit to change their mind a year later.

Although I do agree on paper on-premise should be cheaper than cloud. Like a permanent employee should be cheaper than a contractor.

[northernladuk]

Once companies work out how much they are being ripped off for Cloud hosting/compared to the performance they are getting they'll be all going back to on premise in next 1/2 years so lots of work there.

qh

To be fair I remember a lot of people saying the same thing 10 years ago when the boom started so it's a bit way overdue if that is going to start happening.

A lot of people also said the same about the quality of offshoring companies and it would all come back onshore... which it hasn't.

Fingers crossed on both... BIDI

[quackhandle]

Once companies work out how much they are being ripped off for Cloud hosting/compared to the performance they are getting they'll be all going back to on premise in next 1/2 years so lots of work there.

qh

[dsc]

Im seeing 90% of roles with 'state salary requirements' - 10 years ago it was maybe 10%. Times have changed. How long before its 35k for a senior XYZ role in London?

I try and put 'market rates' if theres no integer only check

Woman actually called me about a role I applied for with this approach - 'you put market rates - the role is paying £55k 6 months FTC'

I said can you do £60k? - She said no

I remember UK used to be the odd one out as it simply said what's possible in a position with some of Europe asking for salary reqs. Now it seems pretty much whole of Europe has this and UK is also playing the "how low can you go" game. 35k isn't that crazy nowadays but for regular, non senior tech people and yes even in London. It's a bloody joke.

I also had a initial job interview and I asked about salary range, got asked the same tulipe "well how much are you thinking" and it turned out I was only 5k off, but even that sounded like "well maybe it's doable, but I'm not sure". If 5k leeway is too much to swallow I bloody give up.

[6128k]

Oddly my rate has been quite good over the last year and I would have had a quick turnaround between two contracts had sign off and Christmas not got in the way. In both instances the agent came to me though.

I will probably be out for six months next time out but maybe we are beginning to see the contractor field thin out in some sectors?

Lucky to have found a new role after just 1 week on the bench (Outside again), but my rate is now £100 less than last time I worked at the client back in 2019!

[Fraidycat]

This years April bounce doest seem to have been as strong or long as last years.