HMRC enquiries for EBT schemes through SANZAR

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Enforcement

I'm keen to know whether people think this is going to go away or not.

I certainly don't think it will, and sooner or later I think we'll all be paying the fiddler so to speak.

As I said in a previous post, I think anybody who's potentially on the hook for this and isn't already making provisions is either very brave or very wealthy. Way I see it, if I have the money and they prove it's owed in 5 years....there you go.......if not, thanks, I'll keep it.

By "this" I assume you mean AP (accelerated payment)? It will be debated and voted on in Parliament (finance bill committee) in the next 2 or 3 weeks. There is an intense lobbying campaign going on but chances are the Government will get their way.

Incidentally, if anyone is going to be unable to pay, have a read of this FOI response from HM Treasury.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...1%20151905.pdf

[TheDandy]

I'm keen to know whether people think this is going to go away or not.

I certainly don't think it will, and sooner or later I think we'll all be paying the fiddler so to speak.

As I said in a previous post, I think anybody who's potentially on the hook for this and isn't already making provisions is either very brave or very wealthy. Way I see it, if I have the money and they prove it's owed in 5 years....there you go.......if not, thanks, I'll keep it.

Surely the point is they'll take your money with an APN, but does anyone really expect them to go about proving that you actually legally owed the disputed tax once they have your cash. The onus will firmly be on the individual. If you aren't bankrupt after the APN, then it's highly unlikely you'll have any resources left to bring a challenge in the tribunal.

[LandRover]

By "this" I assume you mean AP (accelerated payment)? It will be debated and voted on in Parliament (finance bill committee) in the next 2 or 3 weeks. There is an intense lobbying campaign going on but chances are the Government will get their way.

Incidentally, if anyone is going to be unable to pay, have a read of this FOI response from HM Treasury.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...1%20151905.pdf

Thanks for link...

This letter states "Anyone entering a scheme in future...", so how do they justify the retrospective attack of APN? It seems perfectly sensible when read as from passing of the Finance Bill 2014 anyone entering these schemes should pay up front, BUT alas its isnt is it.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Thanks for link...

This letter states "Anyone entering a scheme in future...", so how do they justify the retrospective attack of APN? It seems perfectly sensible when read as from passing of the Finance Bill 2014 anyone entering these schemes should pay up front, BUT alas its isnt is it.

We also noticed that and, no, it doesn't mean it only applies going forward (prospectively).

[DotasScandal]

Just a plain old lie by omission. Nothing has changed.
They just try to keep things as quiet as possible with regard to the retrospective application of APNs.

www.dotas-scandal.org

[TonyTucker]

Hi

Apart from the Contractor Helpdesk intervention, are there any plans for our own group representation?

Keen to explore / discuss any options

Thanks
TT

[MrO666]

I'm not aware of any group approach (maybe others are), and as for CH......hmmmmm, I wouldn't expect much from them. When was the last time anybody heard anything at all from them.

Personally, I would just resist constantly. IF (and it's a big if), HMRC actually take the Sanzar case to court, then I would accept the outcome of that case.

Too many people on these forums talk about continually fighting HMRC to the ends of the earth. If you've got the money to do that, then you've probably got the money to settle the tax bill, draw a line under it and move on with your life.

Maybe the scheme was solid, maybe it wasn't, but I'm not willing to spend years of my life under a cloud worrying about it. If it's owed I'll pay it (it won't be easy) and move on. Chalk it up to experience and smile in the fact that in reality over the past decade or so I've done very well from these types of things, so if I end up settling on the 3 Sanzar years then it's not all bad.

[DotasScandal]

Please understand that with APNs, HMRC will *not* take your case to court, ever. YOU will have to do that ("guilty until proven innocent"... y'know?).
Their incentive to follow the legal process will be zero. The theme will be "stalling" - on a scale you have not seen before.

When people here talk about fighting HMRC, they really mean fighting against HMRC basically giving themselves the right to operate outside a legal framework that has been around for centuries (David Gauke's "Tackling tax avoidance" shenanigans), without any supervision or counter-power.

It's one thing to accept a court decision that says the scheme you used was flawed (most people would accept that gracefully, though they wouldn't like it). It's another one entirely to let your face being plowed into the mud by HMRC's boot, and your savings plundered just because the government says you should.

The latter is petty theft, and not something to chalk up to experience (for whoever has any self-respect)

www.dotas-scandal.org

[MrO666]

If HMRC get their way and start to issue APN's, remember that they still clearly need to be able to prove that the scheme is similar enough in it's workings to an already defeated scheme.

I can already hear everyone saying "it's HMRC, they'll do it anyway", but listen.

So many of these schemes are so light on paperwork it's not even funny. HMRC have confirmed in some cases that they themselves just don't know how certain schemes work. So with that in mind, they cannot then try and say it's similar to another defeated one, as they have no idea whether it is or isn't.

All the furor about bankruptcies is in my personal opinion hype. You try and find a judge (not some muppet magistrate but a court Judge) who will bankrupt anybody based on HMRC saying "well we think this scheme MIGHT be similar to one we've defeated....but we can't actually prove that, so we can't be sure this person owes us anything"......it's not going to happen.

I suspect if APN's get issued, in the most part all that will happen is the balance will again show as owed on your online account and interest will continue to accrue daily (as it does anyway). The main difference between now and post APN, will be that HMRC will start to add their 5% penalties at specified times, which they obviously cannot do today.

I just cannot see any judge in the land bankrupting somebody because HMRC have an inkling of suspicion that you might owe tax, even though you were using a disclosed scheme, and HMRC offering absolutely no solid case to back up their claim.......it's not going to happen.

I personally believe that the retrospective action of APN's will not be enforced, but that they most definitely will be in play from the date they become law, so anybody still using a scheme post that date should be very concerned (or very rich)

This is all just my opinion of course

[DonkeyRhubarb]

If HMRC get their way and start to issue APN's, remember that they still clearly need to be able to prove that the scheme is similar enough in it's workings to an already defeated scheme.

What you are referring to are Follower Notices. HMRC estimate they will issue these to around 4,000 taxpayers in the next 2 years. However, these are just the tip of the iceberg.

APNs can apply to any scheme since 2004 that was, or should have been, registered under DOTAS. The combined estimate is 43,000 taxpayers.

Read this for a better understanding:
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...DOTAS_GAAR.pdf

I agree with you that HMRC probably won't try to bankrupt huge numbers of people. However, I expect there will be a significant number of voluntary bankruptcies.

I'm afraid I do not share your optimism about the retrospective application. The whole point of the policy is to clear HMRC's backlog and collect several £billion.