HMRC enquiries for EBT schemes through SANZAR

[MrO666]

Completely agree that's what HMRC are hoping for, but thankfully we do have courts in this country that are independent of the state (so to speak), so whilst i'm sure HMRC want to push the retro angle, I just don't think they'll get away with it. I'm sure they'll probably try, but I can't see anyone paying up at all, and that leaves them then having to go down the bankruptcy route, which as we've previously stated is unlikely as HMRC can't prove you owe anything.

Ultimately, HMRC may find that their golden arrow isn't quite what they hoped, as on top of 40-50k open appeals, they may well find themselves now lumbered with 40-50k people refusing to pay, so on top of all the paperwork for the appeals (which still by law need to be dealt with), they may well be lumbering themselves with an additional burden of having to deal with non-payers, court cases and everything else. Remember HMRC cannot send a debt collection crowd round until the debt has been proven in court......which they can't do......

Round and round we go

[DonkeyRhubarb]

New template letter to send to your MP

http://notoretrotax.org.uk/public-do...May%202014.doc

[DotasScandal]

You are quite the optimist...
In fact, once the APN legislation is in force, if you are the lucky recipient of one a debt will come into existence (where there was none before). This debt will be enforceable just like any other debt.
That is the magic of APNs...they supposedly "do not change your tax liability", but they still put an enforceable debt on your back. Never mind that this debt might crush you into bankruptcy. I can assure you that the powers that be will not think twice about it.

Up to you to sit back and relax, but forewarned is forearmed.

www.dotas-scandal.org

[CanPayButWouldRatherNot]

New template letter to send to your MP

http://notoretrotax.org.uk/public-do...May%202014.doc

there is a typo in the doc ..

"These changes will essentially allow HMC to "

careful as you cut n paste folks

[DonkeyRhubarb]

You are quite the optimist...
In fact, once the APN legislation is in force, if you are the lucky recipient of one a debt will come into existence (where there was none before). This debt will be enforceable just like any other debt.
That is the magic of APNs...they supposedly "do not change your tax liability", but they still put an enforceable debt on your back. Never mind that this debt might crush you into bankruptcy. I can assure you that the powers that be will not think twice about it.

Up to you to sit back and relax, but forewarned is forearmed.

www.dotas-scandal.org

A lot of people haven't fully grasped the ramifications.

They think APNs will be like other forms of tax notice that they can appeal against.

They aren't. As you say, they create an enforceable debt.

[TheDandy]

Completely agree that's what HMRC are hoping for, but thankfully we do have courts in this country that are independent of the state (so to speak), so whilst i'm sure HMRC want to push the retro angle, I just don't think they'll get away with it. I'm sure they'll probably try, but I can't see anyone paying up at all, and that leaves them then having to go down the bankruptcy route, which as we've previously stated is unlikely as HMRC can't prove you owe anything.

Ultimately, HMRC may find that their golden arrow isn't quite what they hoped, as on top of 40-50k open appeals, they may well find themselves now lumbered with 40-50k people refusing to pay, so on top of all the paperwork for the appeals (which still by law need to be dealt with), they may well be lumbering themselves with an additional burden of having to deal with non-payers, court cases and everything else. Remember HMRC cannot send a debt collection crowd round until the debt has been proven in court......which they can't do......

Round and round we go

Setting aside the practicalities and assuming HMRC are geared up administratively and legally to deal with the number of cases then APNs are designed to circumvent the normal process of determining liability based on the efficacy of a given scheme. The question put forward in a petition for bankruptcy will not be whether your disputed tax is actually payable or not under law, rather the legislation (retrospective though it is) as passed by parliament compels you under said legislation to pay upfront until such time as the central argument is resolved. I don't think it will be for the court presiding over the petition for bankruptcy to have in mind the merits of the legislation. Unless an injunction is granted or a judicial review is successful beforehand (or MPs revolt over this BS) then the legislation will apply. The court will deal with any petition for bankruptcy the same way it does today I guess.

[DotasScandal]

Re: HMRC enquiries for EBT schemes through SANZAR

A lot of people haven't fully grasped the ramifications.

They think APNs will be like other forms of tax notice that they can appeal against.

They aren't. As you say, they create an enforceable debt.

Well... these guys are in for a rude awakening if there ever was one!

Still astonished at the level of hubris and complacency on the part of those likely to be on the receiving end of an APN bullet.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Setting aside the practicalities and assuming HMRC are geared up administratively and legally to deal with the number of cases then APNs are designed to circumvent the normal process of determining liability based on the efficacy of a given scheme. The question put forward in a petition for bankruptcy will not be whether your disputed tax is actually payable or not under law, rather the legislation (retrospective though it is) as passed by parliament compels you under said legislation to pay upfront until such time as the central argument is resolved. I don't think it will be for the court presiding over the petition for bankruptcy to have in mind the merits of the legislation. Unless an injunction is granted or a judicial review is successful beforehand (or MPs revolt over this BS) then the legislation will apply. The court will deal with any petition for bankruptcy the same way it does today I guess.

I largely agree with this.

Although it could be argued that this is an unusual form of debt since, if the taxpayer subsequently went on to win their tax appeal, HMRC would have to repay the tax and penalties with interest. Bankruptcy is a big step which is irrevocable.

I don't know if this is an argument that would carry any weight with a bankruptcy court though.

[jbryce]

and the pain goes on.....

I largely agree with this.

Although it could be argued that this is an unusual form of debt since, if the taxpayer subsequently went on to win their tax appeal, HMRC would have to repay the tax and penalties with interest. Bankruptcy is a big step which is irrevocable.

I don't know if this is an argument that would carry any weight with a bankruptcy court though.

..here's a thing that is even confusing my accountant and he can't get a straight answer from HMRC.

If you are under investigation for a DOTAS registered scheme, will you receive a Follower notice or an APN? HMRC have indicated that it would be a follower notice if an applicable case was relevant, but HMRC have, separately, told him that it would be an APN by virtue of it being a DOTAS scheme. Heads you lose - tails you lose.

As for Bankruptcy, HMRC will pursue it, but two separate practitioners I have spoken to have stated that, in the case of an APN, the court is more likely to support a, realistic, payment plan than force a bankruptcy or house sale if a case is still in flight. It's even more confusing if they bankrupt you and remove your ability to fight your case in court. One of the specialists I spoke to suggested that the court may have to consider leaving you with the financial ability to pursue HMRC - as by bankrupting you they would be removing your ability to get redress through the courts. Human rights or something - the executive removing the ability of an individual to pursue a case against the 'executive'?
Bit of a mess. Fat lady's warming up.....

[TheDandy]

I largely agree with this.

Although it could be argued that this is an unusual form of debt since, if the taxpayer subsequently went on to win their tax appeal, HMRC would have to repay the tax and penalties with interest. Bankruptcy is a big step which is irrevocable.

I don't know if this is an argument that would carry any weight with a bankruptcy court though.

Possibly. Arguments cost money as we know!