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Churchill Knight & Boox clients being investigated as Managed Service Companies

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    Originally posted by eek View Post

    Read my post above.

    HMRC's viewpoint is that Boox provided a packaged solution that targeted people who would otherwise have been paid via PAYE.

    That is enough for them to be a MSC provider in HMRC eyes - it is now up to the tribunals to determine otherwise.

    Edit to add - and the whole point of the MSC legislation was to avoid the need for HMRC to look at every individual case - it's very much you are guilty by association until you prove you aren't.
    Thanks for clarification.
    I know from detailed analysis of my own practices and the legislation that I can't possibly be classed as "Involved"
    I never used any packaged solutions and used BOOX for advice only with evidence to show that I ignored the advice on occasion
    Having read the ESM3520 - Internal HMRC manual I am even more convinced that this doesn't apply to me but I am seriously worried that HMRC will just ignore my evidence and tell me to pay stupid levels of interest on £60k while we wait a year or more for a test case. This is behaviour akin to Extortion.
    Plus I don't currently have a liquid £60k to put in a POA setup due to not working for the last 10 months.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Lotok View Post
      I just got a £100 penatly notice through for Boox failing to submit my company return on time for 2021, despite me authorising and paying them to do so. Unrelated to the MSC stuff but seriously f**k Boox.
      Are you still using Boox? If so, why?

      Comment


        Originally posted by Fuzzynavel View Post

        Thanks for clarification.
        I know from detailed analysis of my own practices and the legislation that I can't possibly be classed as "Involved"
        I never used any packaged solutions and used BOOX for advice only with evidence to show that I ignored the advice on occasion
        Having read the ESM3520 - Internal HMRC manual I am even more convinced that this doesn't apply to me but I am seriously worried that HMRC will just ignore my evidence and tell me to pay stupid levels of interest on £60k while we wait a year or more for a test case. This is behaviour akin to Extortion.
        Plus I don't currently have a liquid £60k to put in a POA setup due to not working for the last 10 months.
        The purpose of the POA is to stop interest accurring - if you won the case (eventually) no interest would be due. It's only if you lose it that interest would be due.

        merely at clientco for the entertainment

        Comment


          Originally posted by nekro View Post

          Are you still using Boox? If so, why?
          No I closed my company a year ago, this just came to light.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Fuzzynavel View Post

            Thanks for clarification.
            I know from detailed analysis of my own practices and the legislation that I can't possibly be classed as "Involved"
            I never used any packaged solutions and used BOOX for advice only with evidence to show that I ignored the advice on occasion
            Having read the ESM3520 - Internal HMRC manual I am even more convinced that this doesn't apply to me but I am seriously worried that HMRC will just ignore my evidence and tell me to pay stupid levels of interest on £60k while we wait a year or more for a test case. This is behaviour akin to Extortion.
            Plus I don't currently have a liquid £60k to put in a POA setup due to not working for the last 10 months.
            Your situation is probably like 97% of Boox and CK clients in the running and involved parts etc., The problem we have always had is the fees and the arguments about accountancy and portals etc., This is what HMRC are hanging onto and driving a steamroller through.

            You also are probably like 97% of those caught up in this, who were a LTD company (one man band) who used LTD as a tax avoidance and well within the law and rules. So you don't have vast reserves built up in your company to pay on account or to pay at all.

            Yes it probably doesn't apply to you and you now need to go and gather every piece of evidence you can possible find, you say you ignored their advice if you have things like directors loan or over paid dividends warnings, business cards, websites, letterheads anything. At some point you may have the opportunity to fight this on your own, a test case is just that doesn't mean it applies to every case.

            Comment


              Originally posted by nekro View Post

              Are you still using Boox? If so, why?
              No one is. According to their website, as of November 2022, they've transferred all remaining clients over to a competitor called Limelight Accountancy Limited, and they are no longer sustaining or operating their accountancy practice.

              Edit: Looks like this was already posted earlier in this thread, apologies https://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc...ml#post2962423
              Last edited by 7specialgems; 28 February 2023, 00:31.

              Comment


                No problem 7specialgems.
                "I can put any old tat in my sig, put quotes around it and attribute to someone of whom I've heard, to make it sound true."
                - Voltaire/Benjamin Franklin/Anne Frank...

                Comment


                  I appealed the first notice for 2017 -2018 which was acknowledged by H using the appeal portal. Then send the appeal for second one that related to 2018, 2019 and 2020. Hope H will confirm in due time.

                  Now that the appeal is out from my side and it says the word 'postponement ' of any payments as per CKA appeal template. Do I still need to make a payment on account so that no interest accrues ? Or this is if I can pay on account it might be better to limit the damages ?

                  Is there any point finding another accountant or firm to shift to now that this investigation, appeals and the lot is already underway using CKA.

                  I am not currently working on a contract role and hence company is dormant. So there is no earnings and so no tax. So nothing to pay or due to H beyond 2020

                  CKA are working on their defense surely but is there any merit in preparing own defense. Could it come to that stage if at all or are unfortunately chosen as a test case ? I wonder if CKA or boox would help support.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by mno View Post
                    I appealed the first notice for 2017 -2018 which was acknowledged by H using the appeal portal. Then send the appeal for second one that related to 2018, 2019 and 2020. Hope H will confirm in due time.

                    Now that the appeal is out from my side and it says the word 'postponement ' of any payments as per CKA appeal template. Do I still need to make a payment on account so that no interest accrues ? Or this is if I can pay on account it might be better to limit the damages ?

                    Is there any point finding another accountant or firm to shift to now that this investigation, appeals and the lot is already underway using CKA.

                    I am not currently working on a contract role and hence company is dormant. So there is no earnings and so no tax. So nothing to pay or due to H beyond 2020

                    CKA are working on their defense surely but is there any merit in preparing own defense. Could it come to that stage if at all or are unfortunately chosen as a test case ? I wonder if CKA or boox would help support.
                    So many things have already been said but as always it comes down to your situation and your company. You mention your company is dormant. Do you have company money in there to pay on account? If so then remember at the moment this is a company debt. PoA if you can is the best of a very bad situation, you're still going to lose all that money when HMRC win but those who haven't paid on account which I suspect is nearly everyone will have to pay more simply because of the interest.

                    Not sure if changing accountants in your situation matters, you have been dormant since 2020 which is the last years of the investigation.

                    This is not CK's trial it's yours they are preparing to support your company not themselves (of course ultimately it is in their best interest - debt transfer etc.,)

                    As I and many others have said many times gather everything you have to prove you were your own business etc., Most are PSCs and one man bands using LTD as tax avoidance but if you can prove you made all your own decisions, payments, invoices, directors meetings blah blah.... gather everything you can. It's the involvement of CK or Boox which is the key here and you need to prove they were just your accountants.

                    Last edited by GregRickshaw; 1 March 2023, 09:42. Reason: Terminology correction

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by GregRickshaw View Post

                      So many things have already been said but as always it comes down to your situation and your company. You mention your company is dormant. Do you have company money in there to pay on account? If so then remember at the moment this is a company debt. PoA if you can is the best of a very bad situation, you're still going to lose all that money when HMRC win but those who haven't paid on account which I suspect is nearly everyone will have to pay more simply because of the interest.

                      Not sure if changing accountants in your situation matters, you have been dormant since 2020 which is the last years of the investigation.

                      This is not CK's trial it's yours they are preparing to support your company not themselves (of course ultimately it is in their best interest - debt transfer etc.,)

                      As I and many others have said many times gather everything you have to prove you were your own business etc., Most are PSCs and one man bands using LTD as tax avoidance but if you can prove you made all your own decisions, payments, invoices, directors meetings blah blah.... gather everything you can. It's the involvement of CK or Boox which is the key here and you need to prove they were just your accountants.

                      FTFY - as it's being an accountant which is 1 of the escape routes - being your bookkeeper implies they were a day to day part of your business which you really don't want.
                      merely at clientco for the entertainment

                      Comment

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