Churchill Knight & Boox clients being investigated as Managed Service Companies

[ritwolf]

Thank you for your comments, it's been quite a few sleepless nights since I received the letter.

Speaking with a friend, he tells me he doesn't think HMRC would go against so many people in bulk unless it's an almost-won case for them, meaning that they have investigated every possible angle and are confident to turn things into their favour (I still don't agree that my company was managed by Boox... I had to correct and then approve their work a few times because of wrong calculations and delayed responses).

Do you share this view, that whenever HMRC has gone against a big number of people in bulk, it's mostly been a won battle for them?

[Guy Incognito]

Every one of us can appeal to the FTT.

They only win in bulk if everyone decides to roll over on the basis of the test cases.

[jamesbrown]

Thank you for your comments, it's been quite a few sleepless nights since I received the letter.

Speaking with a friend, he tells me he doesn't think HMRC would go against so many people in bulk unless it's an almost-won case for them, meaning that they have investigated every possible angle and are confident to turn things into their favour (I still don't agree that my company was managed by Boox... I had to correct and then approve their work a few times because of wrong calculations and delayed responses).

Do you share this view, that whenever HMRC has gone against a big number of people in bulk, it's mostly been a won battle for them?

No. It's the nature of the MSC legislation and this particular approach to it that dictates the scale. It is cheap for HMRC to pursue this at scale and they could win, but the balance of probability is still that they won't. It's a very good risk/reward for them, which is why they'll prefer the MSC legislation than, say, IR35, even though the consequences are similar.

Incidentally, there's an ordering in the ITEPA legislation between Chapters 8, 9 and 10 whereby Chapter 10 takes precedence over Chapter 9 but Chapter 9 takes precedence over Chapter 8. The advantage for HMRC with both Chapters 9 and 10 is scale, it is linking a large number of potentially caught contractors (with shared characteristics) either to an accountancy or to a client business, respectively, rather than messing around with individual contractors.

[ritwolf]

Also, and forgive me if I'm asking so many questions (hopefuly it helps someone else):

- Before receiving the determinations, can you ask HMRC already for a breakdown (as per their informative letter), or do you see any problem in this? Could it trigger anything else?

[ritwolf]

Every one of us can appeal to the FTT.

They only win in bulk if everyone decides to roll over on the basis of the test cases.

I've asked about this and got the following answer:

- If HMRC wins the test cases and the grounds of your appeal are mostly the same, the case would be rejected and not go to FTT. So, generic templated appeals could be a huge problem if this is true. Can anyone confirm?

- All of us sending a very similar templated appeal could further suggest that the accountancy firm is in control as it decides how to handle the case

To me, the first one could make some sense but the second one doesn't, but it would be helpful to know other opinions/views as well.

[Raptors88]

What I am doing is sending the ‘official template’ along with my own personal email with attachments and evidence that we are not an MSC.

[DealorNoDeal]

I've asked about this and got the following answer:

- If HMRC wins the test cases and the grounds of your appeal are mostly the same, the case would be rejected and not go to FTT. So, generic templated appeals could be a huge problem if this is true. Can anyone confirm?

- All of us sending a very similar templated appeal could further suggest that the accountancy firm is in control as it decides how to handle the case

To me, the first one could make some sense but the second one doesn't, but it would be helpful to know other opinions/views as well.

At this stage, it probably doesn't matter much what you put in your appeal letter but, if it was me, I'd keep it to the bare minimum.
I wish to appeal against the determination, and request postponement of payment.

If you want, you could also add.
I do not accept HMRC's contention that my limited company was an MSC.

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If HMRC wins the test cases, but you still want to appeal to the FTT, then you'd need to be able to identify how the particulars in your case differ from the test cases.
I wish to appeal on the grounds that (a) I do not accept HMRC's contention that my company was an MSC, and (b) the judgment in "Bloggs & ors v HMRC" does not fit the fact pattern in my case. In particular:
1) X did not happen with my company
2) Y did not happen with my company
3) my company did W rather than Z
etc

[nekro]

Is anyone else still waiting for their 18/19, 19/20 and NICs determinations to arrive?

[gikap]

Is anyone else still waiting for their 18/19, 19/20 and NICs determinations to arrive?

i am. i expect them around late march. i am dreading every brown-ish coloured letter dropped through letterbox.

[gikap]

What I am doing is sending the ‘official template’ along with my own personal email with attachments and evidence that we are not an MSC.

could you share this ‘official template’?