Churchill Knight & Boox clients being investigated as Managed Service Companies

[DealorNoDeal]

I hope HMRC are ready for every single one of us to go to FTT after the lead cases.

My numbers are looking so bad I'm thinking about putting £25k to one side for legal fees.

Only time will tell whether it will come to this.

HMRC will have a mountain to climb, at the FTT, if the lead cases are anything like you guys.

[eek]

Only time will tell whether it will come to this.

HMRC will have a mountain to climb, at the FTT, if the lead cases are anything like you guys.

The lead cases won't be the people here - HMRC will be picking the clueless ones - and we've enough posters here where we've had to say if you said that you would be condemned by a court without thinking.

The issue everyone needs to be aware of here is that a single badly phrased answer could be enough to mess things up which is why decent legal representation is required

[GregRickshaw]

You could try, I suppose, but I think a DL would be treated as earnings from employment, just because the legislation is so clear that the method/mode of payment doesn't make any difference (and I don't think any in-business factors on their own would get you off, post CBS - in fact, post CBS, the needle was moved more towards just having an accountant, since the "accountant exemption" isn't, in fact, an exemption, it's rather that having an accountant means that you are not automatically caught. i.e., meaningless).

Yes I agree it would be treated as earnings, however a DL over £10k say has interest and a charge on it etc., so would they get that back in the CT refunds.

I wasn't really refering to the money/earnings amount though, more a DL would surely show there was not the level involvement which has been inferred.
At this stage no one really know what will be a factor come FTT.

[DealorNoDeal]

The lead cases won't be the people here - HMRC will be picking the clueless ones -

It doesn't work like that. Under the CPR, lead cases have to be agreed between the legal representatives of the appellants and HMRC. HMRC can't just cherry pick cases that suit them.

[GregRickshaw]

It doesn't work like that. Under the CPR, lead cases have to be agreed between the legal representatives of the appellants and HMRC. HMRC can't just cherry pick cases that suit them.

That will be good DoND, I think many didn't realise this. Certainly many who partake of the heated/worried discussions which take place away from here didn't realise this.

[DealorNoDeal]

That will be good DoND, I think many didn't realise this. Certainly many who partake of the heated/worried discussions which take place away from here didn't realise this.

And what's more, it is often the appellants' representatives who propose the lead cases rather than HMRC. HMRC can object to one or other cases but they'd have to have very strong grounds to convince a tribunal. And "strong grounds" does not mean "these don't suit our purposes".

It would be worth asking CK how the lead cases are being agreed with HMRC.

[Chevalier]

And what's more, it is often the appellants' representatives who propose the lead cases rather than HMRC. HMRC can object to one or other cases but they'd have to have very strong grounds to convince a tribunal. And "strong grounds" does not mean "these don't suit our purposes".

It would be worth asking CK how the lead cases are being agreed with HMRC.

Presumably if HMRC didn’t want certain types of case being presented as test cases they would be dropped? or not?

The range of behaviours though will be very wide ranging… it’s not as if there is a single “scheme”

[Fred Bloggs]

Presumably if HMRC didn’t want certain types of case being presented as test cases they would be dropped? or not?

The range of behaviours though will be very wide ranging… it’s not as if there is a single “scheme”

I should think HMRC will absolutely be painting a landscape that suggests indeed, a "scheme or a solution" was offered. Exhibit A might even be the publicity material from the accountant's own websites offering such a thing. Like eek says though, many a contractor would dump themselves right in the sh1t saying some of the things that has been said in this very thread.

Myself, in this situation my attitude would be "stuff everyone else who might or might not have been MSCs, I definitely wasn't and these are all the reasons why". But you need the best brains to put the legalese together for FTT, of course.

[GregRickshaw]

Presumably if HMRC didn’t want certain types of case being presented as test cases they would be dropped? or not?

The range of behaviours though will be very wide ranging… it’s not as if there is a single “scheme”

I think this is what HMRC did not investigate enough. Pretty sure their huge assumptions have been very deliberate though.

The wording of the CK letters was very telling "after speaking with clients". The question was asked of CK on their portal what sort of % of clients (end or LTDs) did HMRC engage with and CK replied with a figure (not %) of 3 possibly 4.

From day one this investigation has a not even hidden agenda and that is to drive contractors away from LTDs and to push the boundaries of the legislation as much as they can to further prevent those intending on LTD/PSC style operations from taking that route. FWIW I believe it's worked.

[Fred Bloggs]

I think this is what HMRC did not investigate enough. Pretty sure their huge assumptions have been very deliberate though.

The wording of the CK letters was very telling "after speaking with clients". The question was asked of CK on their portal what sort of % of clients (end or LTDs) did HMRC engage with and CK replied with a figure (not %) of 3 possibly 4.

From day one this investigation has a not even hidden agenda and that is to drive contractors away from LTDs and to push the boundaries of the legislation as much as they can to further prevent those intending on LTD/PSC style operations from taking that route. FWIW I believe it's worked.

Hmmm. Away from this tiny corner of the web, how many people actually know this is happening?

I have worked many times with supposedly experienced contractors who barely knew what IR35 was. I would tend to believe the awareness of this situation is far from well known in the general community?

If I didn't come here I would be blissfully unaware of it happening at all. And I am pretty engaged looking out for this kind of stuff generally.