BIG GROUP

[webberg]

So what if it was from 2015 ? And FYI I have paid for my own help through no avail and I am proposing a group which I myself would be funding so which of your comments have value ? ... unless you have anything decent to contribute I suggest you sit on the sideline and keep reading as it seems you are waiting for free help.

This is off topic and not Big Group.

[RajaStyle]

But as you said, if you do a voluntary settlement is there any guarantee that the HRMC will not come back at you for more later?

But some of us who have been out of the business and country for some considerable time this was news to me only a few months ago. Webberg you cannot say that 32000 people have their heads in the sand. I was in at least 5 different schemes. I have only been contacted by one of them, even though I know of 2 others that still exist. I would suggest there are still a lot of contractors out there that are totally unaware of what might be coming.

Anyway webberg, I believe me206et has some valid points.

1. There are many contractors who settled via CLSO for open years who think they are sitting in a good place and have stopped following changes. I remember one of the clauses of acceptance was that it only covers them for the year in question. Do you know if they would also be caught by the 2019 charges fro closed years also ?

2. As me206et points out if you have been involved in more than 1 scheme but only been contacted by one of them, do you think the 2019 charges would want to take you for all of the schemes ? As they would obviously know about them from all the Tax Returns filed.

Hardly makes sense trying to organise a HMRC settlement on the 1 scheme in question for open and closed years only to be taken for more in 2019. HMRC being HMRC won't agree to a full and final settlement on a reasonable amount to close matters for once and for all.

[RajaStyle]

This is off topic and not Big Group.

Just responding to a direct comment

[webberg]

So webberg the membership is just about having access to templates and making informed decisions individually, your first post on this thread which I have quoted does not mention templates at all or anything you have mentioned in your above reply to me.

It is this first post that largely interested me and I still feel it could be possible by a crowdfunding strategy which most contractors would join if we set a target value with each person funding equal amounts.

i.e. "A group is formed. It decides that there are perhaps 4 scheme "types" that are potentially caught by HMRC's present interpretations." and covers 2019 challenges.

If contractors could see that the group effort was directly covering this wider challenge of past and present loans including 2019 tax charges (over 4 main scheme types) it would be a large fishing net which would catch most contractors and motivate them to fund a large challenge using the method you described in your first post. Word would get round and most contractors would fund the few hundred each just out of principle.

Are you saying this is no longer practical or possible or worth the effort ?

I think the clue is in "let's speculate".

It was written in 2015. Things have moved on. We have group and everybody pays the same.

The group has objectives - see above - and we are following them.

People have joined us, some have left, their choice and no financial penalty.

We're executing our strategy and are very clear that we do not encourage or support litigation unless we see a favourable risk/reward ratio for our clients. That strategy includes all schemes our clients have used to April 2017.

We have no strategy for avoiding the 2019 charge other than to agree that the tax has already been settled.

We are aware of certain elements of that proposal may be unfair or prejudicial and we will support or lead a legal challenge if we have to.

We are not interested in crowdfunding.

You seem to be saying that your objectives are not those of BG. Fair enough. I'm not sure what you are suggesting, but good luck with it.

[webberg]

Anyway webberg, I believe me206et has some valid points.

1. There are many contractors who settled via CLSO for open years who think they are sitting in a good place and have stopped following changes. I remember one of the clauses of acceptance was that it only covers them for the year in question. Do you know if they would also be caught by the 2019 charges fro closed years also ?

2. As me206et points out if you have been involved in more than 1 scheme but only been contacted by one of them, do you think the 2019 charges would want to take you for all of the schemes ? As they would obviously know about them from all the Tax Returns filed.

Hardly makes sense trying to organise a HMRC settlement on the 1 scheme in question for open and closed years only to be taken for more in 2019. HMRC being HMRC won't agree to a full and final settlement on a reasonable amount to close matters for once and for all.

Not a topic related to BG.

This is however a question that has been raised and debated in BG for many months. I think it safe to say that many opinions have been expressed.

The advice we have dispensed on Big Group forum is based on research and analysis they have paid for and which belongs to them. I cannot betray that.

Any competent tax adviser can answer these questions (for a fee).

[ChimpMaster]

And this has what to do with Big Group?

I understand you've been on the defensive recently but FWIW I believe you have provided a valuable service. BG has achieved what no one else has, in combining groups of contractors to focus on shared issues.

The dilemma is that, come 2019, the Loan Charge will negate all efforts to fight or settle tax due on the type of loan payments being discussed. Ergo, it stands to reason that this makes Big Group defunct.

This is of course a real shame, because everyone knows what a shambles HMRC have made of the past 15 years or so with the whole situation. And everyone knows that HMRC are pulling a real f&cked up card with the 2019 Loan Charge.

But, hopefully, perhaps there is more to BG than I or other CUK members understand.

[cojak]

A reminder to all posters.

If you wish to create a group that will fight HMRC and the 2019 Loan Charge, feel free to do so.

In another thread.

This thread is to talk about Big Group, not to flame Big Group.

[webberg]

I understand you've been on the defensive recently but FWIW I believe you have provided a valuable service. BG has achieved what no one else has, in combining groups of contractors to focus on shared issues.

The dilemma is that, come 2019, the Loan Charge will negate all efforts to fight or settle tax due on the type of loan payments being discussed. Ergo, it stands to reason that this makes Big Group defunct.

This is of course a real shame, because everyone knows what a shambles HMRC have made of the past 15 years or so with the whole situation. And everyone knows that HMRC are pulling a real f&cked up card with the 2019 Loan Charge.

But, hopefully, perhaps there is more to BG than I or other CUK members understand.

I think you have overstated the effect that the 2019 charge may have.

Whilst HMRC may think it's a dinosaur killer, our view is that Rangers may have knocked the asteroid off course.

Rangers essentially says that earnings as redirected are still earnings. However, the loan (in Rangers) still exists. Thus a 2019 charge on the loan is possible, but if the tax on the loan value has already been met, there is no charge.

Accepting that the legislation is ambiguous (does it mean tax paid by the borrower? the lender? an intermediary? and employer?) means that it becomes more important to arrive at a sensible settlement, quickly.

Quite how HMRC are going to reconcile the position remains to be seen. However I'm sure that they will try and that promises to create a legal challenge that will go way beyond 2019. I think therefore that BG will stay together at least until the end of that process.

You are correct however that the primary purpose of BG was and remains a time limited enterprise.

The resolution we are working on is active now. Again, whilst we would like to think HMRC will see the strength and common sense of that, in reality, HMRC is stubbornly sticking with an analysis that they have had for some years and will only drop when it becomes screamingly obvious that it is wrong, perhaps after more litigation.

We find that our members and HMRC come up with other issues that might be usefully conducted via a group, such as discovery, IR35 problems, etc.

Consequently, accepting that I am a biased commentator, my view is that BG will be around for a few years after 2019.

[Bobo]

Just a side question,

Does anyone know how the interest is charge on the "outstanding tax", for example if HMRC state that I owe £100K for FY13/14, what interest would have been incurred for the years to-date.

Thanks

[eek]

Just a side question,

Does anyone know how the interest is charge on the "outstanding tax", for example if HMRC state that I owe £100K for FY13/14, what interest would have been incurred for the years to-date.

Thanks

HM Revenue & Customs: Interest and penalty calculator (up to 19 years) has one