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    Mod edit: Joining instructions.

    This started elsewhere but should be on its own.

    I have two takers so far.

    To clarify this BIG GROUP is ONE GROUP across ALL schemes.

    It does not impact action individuals may wish to take on their own or via other groups.

    Let's indulge in some speculation.

    A group is formed.

    It decides that there are perhaps 4 scheme "types" that are potentially caught by HMRC's present interpretations.

    It knows that HMRC is not prepared to be sensible in settlement and therefore the only strategy is to defend a number of cases at Tribunal in the hope that a less than 100% victory for HMRC will force them to the table.

    The group also defends to extent possible, APN claims and other spurious attempts from the agency to extract funds. This is on the basis that civil disobedience and tying up HMRC resource is an effective strategy.

    That may require 5 years.

    We'll allow 4 full time staff (admin/website/etc) and a panel of experts. Accommodation, telephone etc. Say £200,000 a year tops. So £1m over 5 years.

    "Experts" budget perhaps £1.5m over that period. That's pretty much one average (in terms of charge out rate) tax specialist full time for 5 years.

    So £2.5m over 5 years. Let's say £3m.

    If the cost per individual was £10 a month for 60 months, how many are needed?

    £3m/60/£10 = 5,000 people.

    How many contractors impacted?

    I don't know. If 100,000, then we're looking at 5% membership.

    To get to that value requires some form of advertising campaign and that in turn requires some seed funding.

    There are "litigation funders" out there. They work by advancing legal costs in return for a cut of a "win".

    They might be interested. More likely something like this forum could run a pre funding group and effectively put up initial funds.

    I reckon perhaps £25,000 to run the ads and initial letter/email/website stuff.

    How many people here?

    500? That's £50 each.

    So the deal is:

    Put up £50. Put up some of your undoubted IT expertise. Hire a temporary project director (on a contract). Ask for volunteers for a steering group (I'd be interested). Elect/appoint a steering committee.

    Spend the initial money over 6 months and see what the response is and re-evaluate.

    If this is a "go", membership is £10 a month for 60 months (perhaps less/more). Alternatively pay £500 day 1 and then nothing until month 61.

    Make sure to get anybody who is willing from NTRT. Make sure to include some PR.

    Last edited by NotAllThere; 25 April 2016, 09:04. Reason: Added joining instructions
    Best Forum Adviser & Forum Personality of the Year 2018.

    (No, me neither).

    I'm in.


      (Copied from the original thread - so a count can be kept ...)

      Everybody knows that IT contractors are well-off - personally, I use £50 notes to light my cigarettes, and £20 notes in place of toilet paper - I'll just have one less cigarette today - a small price to pay to initiate significant long-term group action.

      My only caveat is that such a group action should not impinge on other actions. (For example, I'll be joining the Saleos when my first APN arrives, just to slow HMRC down - other potential members might also be part of various groups already).

      Now we only need another 499 ...
      "If You Tolerate This Your Children Will Be Next ..."


        I'd be more than interested

        Do you think HMRC would allow the £10 a month to be included in my list of outgoings when I'm working out my APN TTP with them ;-)


          I've made this a sticky.
          "I can put any old tat in my sig, put quotes around it and attribute to someone of whom I've heard, to make it sound true."
          - Voltaire/Benjamin Franklin/Anne Frank...


            I'm in



              Originally posted by cojak View Post
              I've made this a sticky.
              Thank you.
              Best Forum Adviser & Forum Personality of the Year 2018.

              (No, me neither).


                Summary of ranting.
                We all know all of that it's - unfair, retrospective effect, bankruptcy, no justice, we all earn £262,000, no right of appeal, HMRC dragging things out for years, only taking cases to court that they are going to win, ineptitude, SO being a sham... I could go on.

                Venting spleen here will only make the "minions of Sauron" chuckle - remember they're not accountable for their actions and never have been. Given that money (or lack of) is the biggest political issue at the moment, they rule the roost as they collect vast sums of money for the Gov't. If they can get more money MPs will cheer - it helps them get re-elected.

                MPs were bamboozled into passing this pernicious law and I dare say the orcs at Mordor who thought of it got a bonus/pay rise/promotion. MPs didn't have a clue what they were signing up to. No MP is going to sign up for scrapping this...and HMRC smell blood - ours in fact.

                So we join in the JR.

                The scheme providers who are still around press HMRC for closure notices to get heard in court.

                It is possible that the delay brought on by the JR will buy enough time to go to court.

                Unless the FTT is particularly astute (unlikely as I understand it) many schemes, however watertight, may lose at this stage. Which means UTT. If HMRC think they are in any danger of losing, they will use delay tactics - in some cases for years. (see HMRC to appeal against high court award to Barclay brothers of £1.2bn | Politics | The Guardian as an example of how long HMRC can drag it out for if they think they're going to lose.)

                That won't do anyone any good if you're relying on getting your money back - unless you are Comte de St Germain and can wait that long!

                Even if we win, there will be no compensation if you're wiped out or made bankrupt. At the moment, no recompense either for APN penalties for a debt you never had.

                The only possible solution is to get Parliament / HMRC to calculate that they would be better off with some sort of compromise (a percentage of what HMRC think we owe them) without recourse to litigation.

                Nasty and unfair, yes. But pragmatic.
                Last edited by flamel; 24 April 2015, 15:41. Reason: spelling
                Join Big Group - don't let them get away with it


                  I'm in too, of course. I'd like to do more but it depends on my workload, wives, driving kids about, moving house etc etc.
                  Join Big Group - don't let them get away with it


                    Definitely in. The more sticks we have to attack this whole debacle with, the better !!
                    STRENGTH - "A river cuts through rock not because of its power, but its persistence"