UKIP Vs Good Old fashioned self interest

[Bunk]

Mmm, I do like a good Old Fashioned

[Smartie]

I don't actually hear any straight answers from UKIP on important questions either...

...You're right about the behaviour of the major parties. Personally I think the answer is to look a bit less at the parties and look more at the individuals you can vote for at an election;

I heard quite a few straight answers yesterday. Farage was interviewed by a guy who threw a load of quick fire questions - are you in favour of this, would you do that etc. He gave a yes or no to pretty much every question. Politicians don't give yes or no answers these days - listen to them. They avoid giving a direct answer and repeat a stock phrase again and again.
I don't want him in government but hopefully the other parties will see that this approach works.

As for choosing individuals over parties, it's just not effective. Independent candidates are virtually never elected. Finding an independent-minded member of the main parties is difficult and getting more difficult as the old conviction politicians gradually die out.

The main parties are now more similar than they've ever been - there's no real choice for people. The best hope for UK democracy was the PR vote as it would have allowed smaller parties a proper voice in parliament. As it is there probably won't be another vote for a generation.

[BlasterBates]

You seem to ignore what a huge market the UK is for EU countries to sell to. Whilst your scaremongering is well argued it lacks balance and I completely disagree with the conclusion you make. First of all what makes you think Scotland will be allowed into the EU? or even that the Scots would want to join? If the UK left the EU then like Switzerland and Norway it would negotiate its own trade agreements with the EU. The EU may be full of self serving bureaucrats but it needs the UK as a trading partner just as much as the UK needs it. You are making misleading assumptions about consequences without any historical or other factual evidence to support them.

Yes eventually there will be a deal. It took Switzerland two decades to hammer out a deal with the EU, so this isn't going to be overnight. Both Switzerland and Norway have completely different deals with the EU so the UK couldn't just say "we'll be like Norway and Switzerland".

Germany might be happy to waive the 10% tariff on cars but Poland and other Eastern European countries would have no interest because they would be a prime location for the Japs and Koreans looking for an alternative investment. Sure eventually they'll agree but they'll be so much haggling with the odd prime minister throwing his veto from time to time just to score a few political points, that it wouldn't happen overnight, meanwhile bye bye Toyota.

Europe is not a single rational individual with whom you can cut a deal, a British Prime minister would have to convince 26 heads of states.

Even something as simple as flying your planes over the EU would probably tie up a ministry (as it does in Switzerland).

The UK economic recovery in the 1980's was focused on foreign investors coming to the UK because it was an attractive place to be and here's the key "in the EU". The Koreans, the Japs and the Germans would not be in Britain if it wasn't in the EU, and if you're not convinced try find a Sony or Toyota plant in Switzerland. After all it does have the lowest taxes and very well trained workforce.

Swiss industry is largely home-grown. If the UK wants to leave the EU (a bigger market than the US) it will have to rely far more on it's own investment.

You mention that the UK is a big market, it has a population of 50 million, but the rest of the EU has a population of 350-400 million. As a foreign investor would you prefer to set up a plant in a market of 50 million of 400 million?

Sure some manufacturers would probably keep their operations in the UK but you're weighting the dice against it.

Eventually the UK could become like Switzerland but it would have to go through a transition. British people tend to be maxed out on their credit cards so it's hard to see where the home grown investment would come from.

[doodab]

The other thing that is frequently overlooked is the degree to which Britain was ****ed into a cocked hat by our political class before we ever joined the EU.

The EU didn't decide we should waste our marshall plan money pretending to be a world power, have a free at the point of use centrally funded health service, abolish grammer schools, or subsidise lossmaking coal and steel industries at the cost of investment in a nascent IT industry which could have genuinely rivaled silicon valley. The country was also beset with strikes when we joined the then EC. Doing so arguably saved our bacon.

[darmstadt]

Yes eventually there will be a deal. It took Switzerland two decades to hammer out a deal with the EU, so this isn't going to be overnight. Both Switzerland and Norway have completely different deals with the EU so the UK couldn't just say "we'll be like Norway and Switzerland".

...

The other thing that is frequently overlooked is the degree to which Britain was ****ed into a cocked hat by our political class before we ever joined the EU.

The EU didn't decide we should waste our marshall plan money pretending to be a world power, have a free at the point of use centrally funded health service, abolish grammer schools, or subsidise lossmaking coal and steel industries at the cost of investment in a nascent IT industry which could have genuinely rivaled silicon valley. The country was also beset with strikes when we joined the then EC. Doing so arguably saved our bacon.

Stop being rational and coherent

[BlasterBates]

and the argument about relocating actually comes from Japan not UK politicians scoring points.


Japan's British investments | The Japan Times

It would be a consequence of leaving the EU.

Those who want to leave have to provide benefits that would counteract the negative impact, not simply argue "it won't happen"

[DodgyAgent]

Yes eventually there will be a deal. It took Switzerland two decades to hammer out a deal with the EU, so this isn't going to be overnight. Both Switzerland and Norway have completely different deals with the EU so the UK couldn't just say "we'll be like Norway and Switzerland".

Germany might be happy to waive the 10% tariff on cars but Poland and other Eastern European countries would have no interest because they would be a prime location for the Japs and Koreans looking for an alternative investment. Sure eventually they'll agree but they'll be so much haggling with the odd prime minister throwing his veto from time to time just to score a few political points, that it wouldn't happen overnight, meanwhile bye bye Toyota.

Europe is not a single rational individual with whom you can cut a deal, a British Prime minister would have to convince 26 heads of states.

Even something as simple as flying your planes over the EU would probably tie up a ministry (as it does in Switzerland).

The UK economic recovery in the 1980's was focused on foreign investors coming to the UK because it was an attractive place to be and here's the key "in the EU". The Koreans, the Japs and the Germans would not be in Britain if it wasn't in the EU, and if you're not convinced try find a Sony or Toyota plant in Switzerland. After all it does have the lowest taxes and very well trained workforce.

Swiss industry is largely home-grown. If the UK wants to leave the EU (a bigger market than the US) it will have to rely far more on it's own investment.

You mention that the UK is a big market, it has a population of 50 million, but the rest of the EU has a population of 350-400 million. As a foreign investor would you prefer to set up a plant in a market of 50 million of 400 million?

Sure some manufacturers would probably keep their operations in the UK but you're weighting the dice against it.

Eventually the UK could become like Switzerland but it would have to go through a transition. British people tend to be maxed out on their credit cards so it's hard to see where the home grown investment would come from.

Like everyone who fights any sort of change you are desperate enough to feel the need to exaggerate and mislead Firstly the population of the UK is about 65 million. Secondly You are misleading people when you crudely divide wealth by the number of people in the aggregated population of the EU when in fact it should be divided according to GDP.

The UK is in a strong position to negotiate trade agreements. It is a huge market for many continental firms. The UK is in fact the rest of the EU’s largest single export market, larger even than the US. Moreover, the rest of the EU’s trade balance with the UK is decidedly positive; it exports more to the UK than the UK exports to the rest of the EU. The EU are not going to cut their noses off to spite their faces.

As for overseas companies using the UK as their door to Europe this is unlikely to change as these companies will still have access to EU markets and the English language to make them stay.

[vetran]

£5.50 a/h was shed loadsa money back then.

And to be fair council estates were far better back then and almost ok to live even if you weren't poor.

As PG said rolling in it.

£5.50 with inflation is worth 14.08 now. looking at this chart this puts you between the 60-80% percentile in 1986 (2011) prices.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_286266.pdf

Or if you double it (£1 in 1986 = £2.01 in 2011 from PDF) then that takes you to £11 an hour so still in the 60-80% percentile.

So in reality you were earning 2.84 times the average wage (1986) and in a subsidised council flat.

Assuming you were doing 40 hours a week and 52 weeks a year that works out to £11,400 which is an acceptable wage for a sub 20 year old now.

I and many others were on a lot less than that (as an apprentice) in 1986.

[d000hg]

I've found it very surprising too that 99.9% (that means, for the benefit of spelling bee, something like 'almost entirely' - like when your mum tells you that she almost entirely doesn't wish you had been just a trapped fart) of contractors here are raving socialists and wannabe despots.

DA certainly isn't a raving socialist and you presumably claim the same about yourself. There aren't 1000 regular posters on CUK let alone 2000 so even if literally everyone but the two of you are raving socialists, you're wrong.

Are you claiming everyone who doesn't support UKIP is a raving socialist, when in previous polls CUK identifies as predominantly Tory?

Your statements make about as little sense as UKIP policies and your grasp of numbers is like reading a Labour budget.

[Zero Liability]

It's a bit of deliberate hyperbole - do you have nothing better to do but fixate on it?

Good points and very valid questions. Given that the Conservatives are now, through the PM, planning to renegotiate the EU membership and reforms, and that Conservative MEPs actually turn up to work at the European Parliament becaue they are taking your concerns seriously, can I suggest voting Conservative?

Can I suggest that the conservatives and the lib-dems actually follow through on their promises, then, and that the conservatives become something other than tepid social democrats, aside from outliers in their party? That'd go a long way in stealing UKIP's thunder. Not lying, that is. It's a shame these parties' candidates can't be prosecuted for fraud.