Crimewatch - Madeleine McCann

[MaryPoppins]

In general, not just CUK general ; when the conversation turns to this horrible matter in the pub, at friends' houses, in CUK or anywhere, I mostly just turn away and talk with someone else because I don't like the way many people are so fiercely judgmental of a young couple who obviously made a mistake but might actually have been damned good parents 99.995% of the time and just had one moment of silliness. But when I've tried to point that out to people I just ended up with all the bile being thrown at me; I can do without that. Maybe I look at it a little (too?) detached because I don't have kids.

I agree that this case attracts a strange reaction in general, yes. I [and I think most here] feel terribly for them both. They clearly decided the risk was worth taking [before d000hg starts, I mean risk of anything happening without them there] and have to live with that, as well as having to live without their daughter.

We had a wardrobe in our house when my son was younger...I could poo in peace.

Crapping in the wardrobe is a little extreme.

[DodgyAgent]

The difference between your two scenarios is the hypothetical woman is an adult, responsible for herself and can take reasonable (or unreasonable) precautions to protect herself, where as the victim in the Maddie case was a 3 year old and those responsible for her care and well-being and that of her siblings CHOSE to sod off and leave them unattended.

Chalk and cheese, you're arguing to troll and not make rational points.

It's an inescapable and admitted fact the parents did not take reasonable precautions when they elected to both leave the apartment with unattended children and so they bear a hefty chunk of responsibility for their actions. Simply put if they hadn't both gone out odds are that the child would not be missing (whatever the reason for that absence).

It does not matter who the victim is the scenarios are both identical in the context of apportioning blame. You argument is like saying that had the victim of a random shooting not got out of his bed he would still be alive.

[mudskipper]

Here, or in general do you mean? I think here what we're only really arguing about is whether leaving the kids alone was the right thing to do.

I'm not sure we're even arguing that. Given what happened, it was clearly the wrong thing to do.

What we're arguing about is whether that poor decision makes them partly responsible, and whether it really is a decision that no right thinking person would have taken, and whether leaving the kids in an apartment in a complex is really that much worse than situations where a "reasonable" person might be tempted to leave their kids for a few minutes - e.g. asleep in the car when you need to pay for petrol? (Mine had a playpen which I used for when I needed a dump or to get dressed/ready for work - I have friends who would never dream of 'caging' their children).

If I allow my 11 year old to walk to school and he gets abducted, am I partly responsible? If I had walked him to school it wouldn't have happened.

[MyUserName]

So what would you think if the parents had slipped out for 15 minutes for a drink at the bar? You have stated the principle that fault lies with the parents(that the Mcanns have only themselves to blame) that children should not be left alone (should parents even be allowed to go to sleep for that matter?). So are you saying it is an absolute? or do you have a time limit when parents can take their eyes off their children?

Their decision did not lead to anything of the sort. By saying that their decision led to the childs abduction is the same as saying a girl wearing a miniskirt and getting raped is asking for it -you are doing it again- blaming the victim

It does not matter who the victim is the scenarios are both identical in the context of apportioning blame. You argument is like saying that had the victim of a random shooting not got out of his bed he would still be alive.

I am sorry but they are not different in terms of who is responsible for the crime. You are apportioning blame on the parents for "encouraging" someone to steal their child by leaving the gate open. What is the difference between that and a girl wearing skimpy clothes and "encouraging" a man to rape her. Both scenarios show a lack of responsibility from the victim.

Blame is irrelevant

Blame seemed to be what you were talking about earlier? I thought you were claiming that if the parents were to blame for their child being kidnapped then by the same reasoning a rape victim would be to blame for her rape? Did I misunderstand?

[Mich the Tester]

I agree that this case attracts a strange reaction in general, yes. I [and I think most here] feel terribly for them both. They clearly decided the risk was worth taking [before d000hg starts, I mean risk of anything happening without them there] and have to live with that, as well as having to live without their daughter.

But you still talk about this as if they made a conscious decision; they might actually have been caught up in the general merriment of a relaxed holiday village, where it's possible that the older kids had spontaneously looked after the younger ones for a number of nights, or another parent had stayed in on a number of nights, and got used to this easy going situation. It's quite possible that there was no conscious decision involved; just an admittedly lax approach that grew in a particular situation. People don't make conscious, rational decisions all the time; situations evolve and what was considered unthinkable last week is generally accepted this week. We don't know all the facts of how things worked among that group of parents, or how things might seem to have worked just fine in the preceding days.

[Mich the Tester]

I'm not sure we're even arguing that. Given what happened, it was clearly the wrong thing to do.

What we're arguing about is whether that poor decision makes them partly responsible, and whether it really is a decision that no right thinking person would have taken, and whether leaving the kids in an apartment in a complex is really that much worse than situations where a "reasonable" person might be tempted to leave their kids for a few minutes - e.g. asleep in the car when you need to pay for petrol? (Mine had a playpen which I used for when I needed a dump or to get dressed/ready for work - I have friends who would never dream of 'caging' their children).

If I allow my 11 year old to walk to school and he gets abducted, am I partly responsible? If I had walked him to school it wouldn't have happened.

I destroyed a playpen in less than 2 minutes when I was placed in one. Six years later my cousin did the same, but he bust his collarbone while he was at it, the silly bugger. He broke the cage as well though, I'll give him that!

Do not try to cage members of the Tester dynasty if you value your cage.

[Hairy]

Blame is irrelevant. The emotion at play here is guilt. I would feel terribly guilty whatever the scenario. I even feel guilt when my children fail at school, get bullied or do no work.
If I had them snatched from me at gunpoint I would feel just as guilty as if I had left them in an unlocked room whilst I was on the pop.
By apportioning blame at the Mcanns we are moving into the territory of judging and blaming victims for the crimes committed against them. It is all very well for these rich stay at home mums or dads (or with the help of nanny)- the privileged lot (you know who you are) to cast judgement on others, but that privileged ability to be able to watch over their children 24 hours a day is a rarity amongst parents even in the UK.

We might not like it but not every parent thinks like we do or comes from the top one percent of the earning class and most of them bring their children up just fine. The fact that a child has been abducted is not the fault of the parents it is the fault of the low life who did the kidnapping. I just hope that when the cotton wool kids with the judgemental parents grow up and start taking drugs the rest of us do not stoop to blaming the parents.

But, he wouldn't have been able to, had they not been out on the pop. This wouldn't be a discussion.

They made a mistake and will, of course, be judged on it. Most parents would feel dreadful for them, as no one would wish this on anyone, but the fact remains, they were selfish, they chose an easier path that night, so they could be with their friends, drinking, dancing and eating. If they hadn’t, the child would be here.

I don’t think anyone here is blaming them for the child being kidnapped, just culpable for the situation THEY created that led her to be kidnapped. It’s no one else’s fault that they absolved themselves of the moral and legal duty of care to their own children that night than their own.

They have to live with that, which would kill me. Anything bad that happens to the kids under my watch makes me wince many months after; not looking and they’re falling over the edge of the couch, small things that hurt them, all because I didn’t pay attention. All that’s happening here, is that the majority of parents say that they’d not have taken the same action, if put in the same situation. I think al I have read here is fair comment to be honest.

[DodgyAgent]

That's assuming the child was abducted. There's no evidence this happened.

That is beside the point. Once you have had five kids churchy you will be begging for them to be abducted

[DodgyAgent]

But, he wouldn't have been able to, had they not been out on the pop. This wouldn't be a discussion.

They made a mistake and will, of course, be judged on it. Most parents would feel dreadful for them, as no one would wish this on anyone, but the fact remains, they were selfish, they chose an easier path that night, so they could be with their friends, drinking, dancing and eating. If they hadn’t, the child would be here.

I don’t think anyone here is blaming them for the child being kidnapped, just culpable for the situation THEY created that led her to be kidnapped. It’s no one else’s fault that they absolved themselves of the moral and legal duty of care to their own children that night than their own.

They have to live with that, which would kill me. Anything bad that happens to the kids under my watch makes me wince many months after; not looking and they’re falling over the edge of the couch, small things that hurt them, all because I didn’t pay attention. All that’s happening here, is that the majority of parents say that they’d not have taken the same action, if put in the same situation. I think al I have read here is fair comment to be honest.

You are contradicting yourself. Culpable is the same word as blame. You are still apportioning blame to the Mcanns.

[vetran]

I just hope they find the poor cow alive and not too damaged.