Panorama - abortion

[formant]

Ah, that old substitute for logic.

No it doesn't. There is also the position that the child's right to life before the child is born is equal to the right to decent life thereafter.

Funny how pro-lifers only ever campaign for the right to birth though, rather than for ensuring that children aren't born into troubling circumstances. Probably cause they don't actually think (much) about the latter.

Forcing people into parenthood (which is what pro-lifers prefer over aborting the fetus) doesn't leave much room for ensuring the life of the child is what it should be thereafter. Giving people the option to choose parenthood does a significantly better job at that.

[NotAllThere]

Funny how pro-lifers only ever campaign for the right to birth though, rather than for ensuring that children aren't born into troubling circumstances....

You might as well argue that all pro-choicers are evil since they only campaign about women having access to abortions and no interest in the poverty/lack of education that was a contributing factor to the pregnancy in the first place.

That would be equally false. Many people on both sides have a deep interest in child welfare. You're just spouting the usual emotion laded rhetoric that (again) both sides love to indulge in.

[formant]

You might as well argue that all pro-choicers are evil since they only campaign about women having access to abortions and no interest in the poverty/lack of education that was a contributing factor to the pregnancy in the first place.

Except that there are plenty of cases where unwanted pregnancies occur well outside of those groups that we like to attribute this 'problem' to. You're forgetting that it's not all poor/uneducated teenagers. That's not even the majority.

Yeah, poverty and poor education are a problem (in various ways) - but that's really only remotely related to the topic of abortions. Child welfare post-birth is a much bigger deal, with a much more direct link to this debate.

[vetran]

Except that there are plenty of cases where unwanted pregnancies occur well outside of those groups that we like to attribute this 'problem' to. You're forgetting that it's not all poor/uneducated teenagers. That's not even the majority.

Yeah, poverty and poor education are a problem (in various ways) - but that's really only remotely related to the topic of abortions. Child welfare post-birth is a much bigger deal, with a much more direct link to this debate.

Only a third of the abortions I know of, were in couples who were likely or were earning below average wages.

[d000hg]

Funny how pro-lifers only ever campaign for the right to birth though, rather than for ensuring that children aren't born into troubling circumstances. Probably cause they don't actually think (much) about the latter.

I think you base that conclusion on a total lack of facts. What about all the Christian (and other) adoption charities?
What about the fact that many great people have come from the worst of backgrounds even without adoption? Shouldn't you ask people who were brought up in such situations if they'd rather have been aborted before deciding for them it's better they were never born?

[formant]

I think you base that conclusion on a total lack of facts. What about all the Christian (and other) adoption charities?
What about the fact that many great people have come from the worst of backgrounds even without adoption? Shouldn't you ask people who were brought up in such situations if they'd rather have been aborted before deciding for them it's better they were never born?

I have asked 'those people', I have a very prevalent case of this in my family (as I've mentioned previously). I haven't arrived at my opinions at random.

I don't consider adoption a real alternative to abortion. It may be for the individual mother, but I won't treat it as something to do to cut down on the number abortions. Meaning, I think it's nothing short of cruel to think one should force a woman through pregnancy and labour to then give the unwanted child away. And it's not like the adoption system in this country is in any reasonable state, considering how many perfectly decent families find their applications turned down, while more and more children move from one children's home or foster family to another.

It's great when people overcome their difficult childhood, but there's plenty of evidence that many, or most do not (and continue to be disadvantaged all their life). I don't think a few strong minds overcoming this sort of thing justify the creation of a reality in which many more families would be forced to bear children into such troublesome circumstances.

[d000hg]

Is a disadvantaged life not worth living then? The majority of people born in all those 'Comic Relief Countries' have horrible lives so why leave the parent to choose in the first place... if the parent chooses not to abort then they are abusing the child.

Devil's advocate, obviously, but isn't it an extension of the same argument?

[EternalOptimist]

Would "yay, grandma at 32" have been a option?

..

She couldn't be a grandma at 32, unless one of them was having underage nookies. ooh mudskipper, you are a one

[formant]

Is a disadvantaged life not worth living then? The majority of people born in all those 'Comic Relief Countries' have horrible lives so why leave the parent to choose in the first place... if the parent chooses not to abort then they are abusing the child.

Devil's advocate, obviously, but isn't it an extension of the same argument?

No, I think you're blurring a few things here.

What shouldn't be created by force is further children that are, with a considerable amount of determination, unwanted. Unwanted and subsequently often enough unloved children are often subject to extreme emotional abuse (for 'ruining' the mother's/parents' life, for being nothing but a burden, etc.).

There are plenty of (socially/fiscally/etc) disadvantaged families that do a fantastic job at bringing up children - because they want to. Because they got to choose. Because they chose to be the best parents they can possibly be.

There will also always be families who will have children but (deliberately) raise them inadequately/in circumstances of (all kinds of) abuse. That's no justification for removing choice though - in either direction. That's where intervention must happen afterwards. Aside from that - contraception is still not where it should be in those 'Comic Relief Countries' you're referring to there.

[mos]

1 in 3 is shocking

How they calculated this number? It looks very high. Some women may have multiple abortions, and many are just tourists from countries where its illegal, could that affect this metric?