WIPRO

[cojak]

What are your plans for ensuring you are not under cut and out of work in 3 year's time Phillip?

[KentPhilip]

What are your plans for ensuring you are not under cut and out of work in 3 year's time Phillip?

1. Invest in those companies, like Wipro, that are taking the lead in this.
2. Be prepared to drop your rates to compete with these guys on a level playing field, so that you can remain in work. Reduce your expenditure to match (live with family, hostels, hospital canteens etc).
3. Work overseas (the indians have shown a keenness to come here; we should show the same keeness to go over there or to other worldwide locations).
4. Free yourself of onerous mortgage committments and other stupid UK "investments".
5. Work with the indians and help them to help themselves. The poster who turned down £80K for doing just this was naive unless he could get a better rate elsewhere.
6. If new to the industry don't try to do the same job as the indians. You don't open a hot dog stand on a beach front that has too many of them already.
7. If necessary get out of IT and train in something more useful.
8. Work in areas where the indians can't compete. Such as UK-based support work requiring very good communication skills.
9. Focus on other areas of your life that don't need much money, such as extending a hobby or just plain chilling out.

10. And if all that fails, get a job with Wipro. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!

[bobspud]

Phillip I think you are delusional. I have a wife and kids. Are you seriously suggesting I move my family in to someone else's home or a hovel to reduce my rates?

No thanks, but you are right we do need to work all over the world rather than sit in one place.

I am negotiating a price to take a team of guys into a role to close a European data centre for a multinational. It sure isn't £50 per day and we won't be staying in bedsits.

[KentPhilip]

Phillip I think you are delusional. I have a wife and kids. Are you seriously suggesting I move my family in to someone else's home or a hovel to reduce my rates?

No thanks, but you are right we do need to work all over the world rather than sit in one place.

I am negotiating a price to take a team of guys into a role to close a European data centre for a multinational. It sure isn't £50 per day and we won't be staying in bedsits.

I don't have a wife and kids though... (I was asked what "I" would do).

You are saying that your price for this datacentre team won't be as low as £50/day. Are you implying that you fear being undercut by Wipro who might price it that low? And if you are then why shouldn't that multinational be able to choose who to use?

[Freamon]

Working in a bank.

New project just in for a 32,000 customer merge project, will take approx 10 contractors a good 6 months to complete.

I asked the manager involved if he would be advertising the position on Jobserve as I have a couple of mates looking for work.

This is a bank proped up by the tax payer.

"Oh no we can have 10 Wipro guys in here within 10 working days from Chennai, the visas are fast tracked intra company and already pre-approved."

I was amazed to learn a few months ago that, for new apps being developed, Google now outsources their coding to Wipro.

[malvolio]

I don't have a wife and kids though... (I was asked what "I" would do).

You are saying that your price for this datacentre team won't be as low as £50/day. Are you implying that you fear being undercut by Wipro who might price it that low? And if you are then why shouldn't that multinational be able to choose who to use?

Its not the baseline cost that's the problem, it's the deliberate and continuous abuse of the Visa system used to being them in. The cost proposal is based on blatantly unfair trading practices.

That blog I quoted earlier is how it really works, I suggest you have a read of it. They aren't simply undercutting us on price, they are sytematically using a range of techniques to do it, mostly in flat contravnetion of HMG intentions , ably supporedt by the increasingly clowninsh Cable (whio, let it be remembered, has a very soft spot for all things Indian) and a UK middle management layer who are frankly incompetent.

As for "Go work for Wipro", (a) they wouldn't have you and (b) in five years the UK won't have an IT workforce anyway.

And while some of the ICTs are actually very good, the majority simply aren't and actually cost considerably more in the medium term than using local people who know what they're doing without constant rewwork and hand-holding.

[jonathanOnshore2010]

7. If necessary get out of IT and train in something more useful.

Goes back to the need to specialise in something high value to the end client (as discussed elsewhere). Now I've started studying and planning to switch to a BA role at some future point, I can now see why those guys will be very unlikely to be outsourced....

[SueEllen]

It's only us contractors who lose by finding that we are out of work or have to drastically cut our rates. But how is it fair for them to have to work for much less than us?

Permies lose - lots have been made redundant more than once due to off-shoring.

British young people lose as they have another industry sector where there are no jobs in it for them.

[KentPhilip]

Its not the baseline cost that's the problem, it's the deliberate and continuous abuse of the Visa system used to being them in. The cost proposal is based on blatantly unfair trading practices.

That blog I quoted earlier is how it really works, I suggest you have a read of it. They aren't simply undercutting us on price, they are sytematically using a range of techniques to do it, mostly in flat contravnetion of HMG intentions , ably supporedt by the increasingly clowninsh Cable (whio, let it be remembered, has a very soft spot for all things Indian) and a UK middle management layer who are frankly incompetent.

As for "Go work for Wipro", (a) they wouldn't have you and (b) in five years the UK won't have an IT workforce anyway.

And while some of the ICTs are actually very good, the majority simply aren't and actually cost considerably more in the medium term than using local people who know what they're doing without constant rewwork and hand-holding.

How is it unfair to try to work around UK visa restrictions that are themselves unfair (by virtue of placing restrictions on immigration based purely on nationality).

As for "they wouldn't have you" I don't see why not. They have a european recruitment section on their website:
Job Opportunities for Experienced person at Wipro Career in UK & Europe
and an equal opportunities page suggesting there won't be an automatic ban for not being indian:
Equal opportunities to all employees and candidates

I would be quite happy to work for them, and will probably do so as and when UK rates drop down to their level (or vice versa).

Maybe it is time for a bunch of us to get together and form an organisation that uses marketing effectively to show our prospective clients the sort of problems the indians can cause.
I can see the slogan now: "Don't use indians; they're a bunch of cowboys!"

[tractor]

..

1. Invest in those companies, like Wipro, that are taking the lead in this. My conscience would not allow me to work for a company that flouts the law.
2. Be prepared to drop your rates to compete with these guys on a level playing field, so that you can remain in work. Reduce your expenditure to match (live with family, hostels, hospital canteens etc). You mean the level playing field created by Microsoft where non Indian nationals cannot choose where to take their accreditation exams?
3. Work overseas (the indians have shown a keenness to come here; we should show the same keeness to go over there or to other worldwide locations). They want to come here for a reason, the same reason that many do not want to go where they are running away from.
4. Free yourself of onerous mortgage committments and other stupid UK "investments". Some of us don't have a mortgage.
5. Work with the indians and help them to help themselves. The poster who turned down £80K for doing just this was naive unless he could get a better rate elsewhere. Or he chose to put his money where his mouth was - which happens all too infrequently.
6. If new to the industry don't try to do the same job as the indians. You don't open a hot dog stand on a beach front that has too many of them already. Doesn't put the indians off coming here.
7. If necessary get out of IT and train in something more useful.
8. Work in areas where the indians can't compete. Such as UK-based support work requiring communication skills. FTFY
9. Focus on other areas of your life that don't need much money, such as extending a hobby or just plain chilling out. No

10. And if all that fails, get a job with Wipro. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em! See Point 1

Any other sensible suggestions?