Indian Visa Scheme and IR35

[sadkingbilly]

They get what ever resources they want for what ever they have on the go. Remember, they now are owning the project quite possibly for YOUR client. Quite possible also that your client recruits you for them and pays the time sheet and your client on the contract but you report to them.
I gather is quite a bit going on in Retail IT in the UK at the moment using this model!
The PE firms will usually finance the large projects on additional debt.
They are not particularly keen these days on completely hiving off projects to say Accenture/HP/Anyone else, preferring to recruit a PM and contractors but they will NOT pay big rates at all for anything. They are pressuring the rates down. Expect any contract to be well inside IR35 especially on SDC. Micromanagement is the word.

So to answer your question as to what they use IT engineers for, it could be anything from SAP or python for example to a USB nose picking device!

ok, ta.
can't see them affecting my sector though (IBM mainframes).

[courtg9000]

ok, ta.
can't see them affecting my sector though (IBM mainframes).

you never know, thats the thing, like I said it could be absolutely anything with any client and any tech stack.
Top tip: check out who actually owns the majority of the shares in your end client. If its a PE firm the chances of you running in to them in some way or another are fairly high.
To be fair this situation is more likely to affect project stuff more than BAU/in-flight work but if for example. the PE firm decided to "sack" its C Suite on the spot (this has happened, especially in the US) and temporarily run the company itself while they appoint replacements you might cross paths/swords on BAU/in flight.

[Sue B]

I haven't had a chance to read the detail yet, and I'm not commenting on the possible impact on UK consultancy etc as that's not my area of expertise.

However as I have understood it, this is another reciprocal agreement, which the UK has with many other countries, (50+) the basis of which means that foreign nationals working here and UK Nationals working overseas, where there is a treaty in force, don't pay the local version of social security but must continue to pay a NI/Social contribution (employer and employees) back home.

If this is written along these lines, Indian employers and the employees will be exempt from UK NI but have to pay the local equivalent. I believe the current rates of Indian social security is 24%, split 50/50 between employer and employee.

Generally speaking, where there is no reciprocal agreement in place, UK Nationals working overseas have to pay a minimum 52 weeks of UK NI as well as that due in the host country.

[rootsnall]

Would they not, though, be liable for the Indian equivalent to NI?

The news coverage says yes but I doubt it is as high as NI which is a tax in all but name. On a £50K salary they'll be saving about £10K in NI ( employees + employers ) which I guess will be a game changer in many cases. If we do still have a 'skills shortage' you would think the government should be encouraging and incentivising UK employers to take on young locals rather than doing the opposite.

[Chris Bryce]

...this is another reciprocal agreement, which the UK has with many other countries, (50+) the basis of which means that foreign nationals working here and UK Nationals working overseas, where there is a treaty in force, don't pay the local version of social security but must continue to pay a NI/Social contribution (employer and employees) back home.

If this is written along these lines, Indian employers and the employees will be exempt from UK NI but have to pay the local equivalent. I believe the current rates of Indian social security is 24%, split 50/50 between employer and employee.

Generally speaking, where there is no reciprocal agreement in place, UK Nationals working overseas have to pay a minimum 52 weeks of UK NI as well as that due in the host country.

This is true, but:-

Look up intra-company transfers - an "excellent" way that Tata, Wipro et al import labour into the UK. If I was running a labour intensive business or a consultancy, I’d set up a shell company in India, employ people there and ship them here on ICTs - three years no NI == cheaper than my competitors.

Those arguing that other countries have the same deal are not taking into account that India has a population of about 1.48 billion and that English is a key language there. Those other countries are a combination of some or all of: tiny, similarly expensive to the UK anyway, do not have a massive industrial base, tiny, lacking in skilled workers, tiny, are nicer to live/work in than the UK anyway, tiny, non-English speaking, yadda yadda yadda.

The importation of cheap(er) Indian labour has been going on for years and years especially in tech/IT. This could well make it much worse.

[Andy2022]

Would they not, though, be liable for the Indian equivalent to NI?

Yes, and it's pretty standard clause we have in other trade deals too

[Paddy]

Think Coolcat sums it up. Can't see anything in news about whether or not they get benefits of NHS etc. while paying no NI but I daresay they will.

It won't be reciprical either, the number of Indians currently working in the UK is about 25 times the number of British citizens working in India. Suppose the plus side is that Indians (and Chinese) are by far the most useful migrant groups but on the other hand we don't need more expansion of our bloated population.

And, according to a pro-EU group, this deal will boost the economy by just 1/20th of the 2.2% that a deal with the EU will provide.

Starmer secures Britain’s biggest post-Brexit trade deal with India | The Independent

That article also says "The deal is also expected to make it easier for Indian chefs, musicians and yogis to come to the UK" Wow! More restaurants and yoga classes! Just what we need!

[GJABS]

Yes, and it's pretty standard clause we have in other trade deals too

ok, then what are people complaining about then in regard to this apparent NI disparity? It would seem there is no disparity in fact.

[Bluenose]

ok, then what are people complaining about then in regard to this apparent NI disparity? It would seem there is no disparity in fact.

Controversial.

The main A1 agreements in place are with known EU Western allies, the five eyes, small colonies and developed economies, not from 3rd world or developing countries with one or two notable exceptions.

None of them are with english speaking developing or 3rd world countries of any size.

This will be the first of its type, with the predictable consequences.

[GJABS]

Controversial.

no I mean specifically in regard to the NI liability. I agree that other aspects are bad. We can't claim that they get a NI advantage over us if in fact they have to pay their own NI (in India).