Outside IR35 now even harder to prove PGMOL ruling

[northernladuk]

Is that how it works? I mean if I end up in court accused of some crime, I don't have to produce any evidence to defend myself, I could simply say its up to the prosecution to prove it. And if they have no evidence at all, they cannot prove it.

But of course and HMRC investigation is not a court case. Are you telling me it works the other way around, "guilty" until you prove your innocence?

A tax investigation isn't dealt with as a crime unless it's very serious. They deal with it as a civil matter. Most will be resolved through the sharing of information and the clarifying of certain issues. Should they proceed further, they will usually take place under Code Of Practice 9 (COP 9), where the person being investigated is then given the opportunity to make an accurate and complete disclosure of all their deliberate and non-deliberate conduct that has resulted in errors in their tax affairs. Punishment will be handled as penalties to pay.

[eek]

who pays the tax?

the agency / end client.

Why do you think jamesbrown and myself made such a fuss about claw back clauses...

[vetran]

A tax investigation isn't dealt with as a crime unless it's very serious. They deal with it as a civil matter. Most will be resolved through the sharing of information and the clarifying of certain issues. Should they proceed further, they will usually take place under Code Of Practice 9 (COP 9), where the person being investigated is then given the opportunity to make an accurate and complete disclosure of all their deliberate and non-deliberate conduct that has resulted in errors in their tax affairs. Punishment will be handled as penalties to pay.

My understanding is if HMRC think you are guilty they make up a number and penalties then send you a bill, you get to challenge that number as they try to forcibly extract it from.

[malvolio]

Really? Under Chapter 10 rules it's the agency / client who will be defending the status - hence the reason so many contracts are now inside..

Yes I know and totally agree. My point was that any contractor should understand the underlying logic (as much as there is one!) under the rules and who does what. I fear I didn't express that very well...

[eek]

Yes I know and totally agree. My point was that any contractor should understand the underlying logic (as much as there is one!) under the rules and who does what. I fear I didn't express that very well...

I'm sorry but that was NOT what you wrote - what you said was this below which is Chapter 8 and not Chapter 10.

Erm...

You will be the one defending your status, not the client. You are the one to provide the evidence. If you can't, you lose immediately.

We have been facing this for over 20 years. You would hope people had at least a grasp of the realities by now.

I really am getting fed up with former contractors who post on things that they haven't got the first clue given how much things have changed.

[malvolio]

I'm sorry but that was NOT what you wrote - what you said was this below which is Chapter 8 and not Chapter 10.



I really am getting fed up with former contractors who post on things that they haven't got the first clue given how much things have changed.

I do know how much things have changed, actually.

But we should all understand the absolute basics, that whoever is making the determinations and paying the penalties via whatever proxies they can create in the contractual chain, the fundamentals of IR35 are still in place and well documented. It was clear that the OP here did not appreciate that they are ultimately responsible for ensuring they know the actual situation and which bits of it are the important ones. That applies whether or not we are defending a CH8 or a Ch10 case or even trying to stop you paying someone else's tax bill. You can't simply assume that a valid defence is entirely someone else's problem.

And FWIW I am still a contractor, just not a very busy one and a million miles away from having to worry about IR35.

[willendure]

A tax investigation isn't dealt with as a crime unless it's very serious. They deal with it as a civil matter. Most will be resolved through the sharing of information and the clarifying of certain issues. Should they proceed further, they will usually take place under Code Of Practice 9 (COP 9), where the person being investigated is then given the opportunity to make an accurate and complete disclosure of all their deliberate and non-deliberate conduct that has resulted in errors in their tax affairs. Punishment will be handled as penalties to pay.

Sounds terrifying.

Would it be fair to say that the contract itself is the primary piece of evidence though? That is where an investigation would look first and then seek to verify what the contract claims.

[willendure]

Read in the papers that our chancellor is putting together a task force on tax collection. I don't think that specifically includes any kind of focus on IR35, maybe more big corporates and off shoring and so on. No wonder they are being showered with "gifts".

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2617142.html

"Tax dodgers will be targeted by Rachel Reeves, who will say she “will not tolerate the minority” who avoid “paying what they owe”.

The Chancellor will announce that a further 200 new compliance officers have been offered roles at HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) to begin in November as part of a plan to recruit 5,000 more taxmen over five years.

The move is part of a plan to close the £39.8 billion “tax gap” between what is owed and the amount actually collected."

[woody1]

The move is part of a plan to close the £39.8 billion “tax gap” between what is owed and the amount actually collected."

How many times have I heard that over the past 20-odd years but the gap never seems to get any narrower.

[The Spartan]

What the government fails to realise is that they are losing yet more tax by contractors getting fed up and leaving to take up permanent jobs, but hey lets not point that out to them as they see us as dirty tax avoiders and just don't understand how finance actually works.