Update on JCB's pursuit of Hydrogen as their fuel of the future

[Zigenare]

Go a watch Tesla's investor day and then come back a explain why hydrogen is going to be better than batteries. It starts 29 minutes in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl1zEzVUV7w

A internal combustion engine produces a lot of waste heat.

Currently with 100 kWh of electricity you can either.

1. Make green hydrogen 80% efficiency = 80 kWh of hydrogen, burn this in a ICE to produce 20 kWh work e.g. moving the car.

or

2. Transmit the electricity to the car/vehicle location 2% loss = 98 kWh of electric left. Charge car for another 5% loss = 93 kWh stored in battery, then use the electric for another 5% loss = 88 kWh of work.


You are going to need something exceptional to justify the difference in hydrogen over battery. I currently agree with Elon the only exceptional need is space travel, and that will be methane.

Please come up with a counter argument, as I haven't found one yet.

Also, we don't have enough infrastructure to store electricity - Hydrogen would make a good battery if the Hydrogen is extracted from water.

[BlasterBates]

Go a watch Tesla's investor day and then come back a explain why hydrogen is going to be better than batteries. It starts 29 minutes in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl1zEzVUV7w

A internal combustion engine produces a lot of waste heat.

Currently with 100 kWh of electricity you can either.

1. Make green hydrogen 80% efficiency = 80 kWh of hydrogen, burn this in a ICE to produce 20 kWh work e.g. moving the car.

or

2. Transmit the electricity to the car/vehicle location 2% loss = 98 kWh of electric left. Charge car for another 5% loss = 93 kWh stored in battery, then use the electric for another 5% loss = 88 kWh of work.


You are going to need something exceptional to justify the difference in hydrogen over battery. I currently agree with Elon the only exceptional need is space travel, and that will be methane.

Please come up with a counter argument, as I haven't found one yet.

Waiting for several hours in a queue for a charge point.

You can try doing the calculations on the current copper reserves, but from what I see it's way short of what is required for a renewable electric infrastructure. I'm heavily invested in copper mining for this reason .

[malvolio]

Go a watch Tesla's investor day and then come back a explain why hydrogen is going to be better than batteries. It starts 29 minutes in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl1zEzVUV7w

A internal combustion engine produces a lot of waste heat.

Currently with 100 kWh of electricity you can either.

1. Make green hydrogen 80% efficiency = 80 kWh of hydrogen, burn this in a ICE to produce 20 kWh work e.g. moving the car.

or

2. Transmit the electricity to the car/vehicle location 2% loss = 98 kWh of electric left. Charge car for another 5% loss = 93 kWh stored in battery, then use the electric for another 5% loss = 88 kWh of work.


You are going to need something exceptional to justify the difference in hydrogen over battery. I currently agree with Elon the only exceptional need is space travel, and that will be methane.

Please come up with a counter argument, as I haven't found one yet.

Easy. Limited life of batteries, requirement for rare earths and other exotics and pollution from expired batteries. The fire risk is also much greater with Li-On batteries, mostly because you can't put the fire out.

As for the vehicles, a suitable battery pack runs about half a ton, hence the specialist tyres and additional wear rates and particulate pollution, whereas a fuel cell is about 50Kg.

In other words, don't trust the words of a battery supplier when making comparisons...

[vetran]

Go a watch Tesla's investor day and then come back a explain why hydrogen is going to be better than batteries. It starts 29 minutes in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl1zEzVUV7w

A internal combustion engine produces a lot of waste heat.

Currently with 100 kWh of electricity you can either.

1. Make green hydrogen 80% efficiency = 80 kWh of hydrogen, burn this in a ICE to produce 20 kWh work e.g. moving the car.

or

2. Transmit the electricity to the car/vehicle location 2% loss = 98 kWh of electric left. Charge car for another 5% loss = 93 kWh stored in battery, then use the electric for another 5% loss = 88 kWh of work.


You are going to need something exceptional to justify the difference in hydrogen over battery. I currently agree with Elon the only exceptional need is space travel, and that will be methane.

Please come up with a counter argument, as I haven't found one yet.

JCB have already explained why. A Battery JCB working an 8 hour shift would need recharging 2-3 times making it useless for a few hours of work time. Same for many Trains, lorries, buses etc. Hydrogen can be used like diesel JCB have made it Kilo to Kilo energy equivalent. The Americans and Europeans (especially the Germans & Netherlands) are trialling it.

Yes you can transmit electricity to a car if its there when you generate it. Sadly most are at work, travelling or commuting. Possibly we could charge them overnight if we get a steady load.

Storage is the problem so unless we turn Swindon & Milton Keynes into a hydroelectric plant we might as well look at hydrogen.

Like everything it depends. The battery car may be the right solution for some but will the grid support it?

If we replace electric trains & buses will that mean more electricity capacity for cars?

Hydrogen can be generated using excess green energy, so generating hydrogen by wind turbines, wave or solar is an option.

[Hairlocks]

Also, we don't have enough infrastructure to store electricity - Hydrogen would make a good battery if the Hydrogen is extracted from water.

Tesla have been making grid battery storage for years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve

and in the UK https://electrek.co/2022/11/22/tesla...ggest-battery/

Batteries are being installed at scale while Hydrogen proponents seem to be doing press releases.

[Hairlocks]

Waiting for several hours in a queue for a charge point.

Owned a Tesla for 3.5 years now and never had that problem yet. I have wasted a lot more time filling up ICE cars, and queuing for petrol/diesel in the past.

You can try doing the calculations on the current copper reserves, but from what I see it's way short of what is required for a renewable electric infrastructure. I'm heavily invested in copper mining for this reason .

Interesting, might go a research that opinion more.

[vetran]

Tesla have been making grid battery storage for years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve

and in the UK https://electrek.co/2022/11/22/tesla...ggest-battery/

Batteries are being installed at scale while Hydrogen proponents seem to be doing press releases.

and no

https://www.sdi.co.uk/buy-from-scotl...ogen-companies

[Hairlocks]

Easy. Limited life of batteries, requirement for rare earths and other exotics and pollution from expired batteries. The fire risk is also much greater with Li-On batteries, mostly because you can't put the fire out..

Internal Combustion Engines also have a limited life. Tesla have removed the need for rare earths, currently expired car batteries are reused. I don't think we have got to the state that car batteries need to be recycle to create new batteries yet, they get reused instead.

I agree fires have more on a impact as they can't be put out, but they are less common that fires in ICE vehicles. Fire in a car with a hydrogen tank could be interesting.

As for the vehicles, a suitable battery pack runs about half a ton, hence the specialist tyres and additional wear rates and particulate pollution, whereas a fuel cell is about 50Kg.
.

wrong. https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric...an-petrol-and/

In other words, don't trust the words of a battery supplier when making comparisons...

Hence asking in here to find out other comparisons / opinions.

[BlasterBates]

Owned a Tesla for 3.5 years now and never had that problem yet. I have wasted a lot more time filling up ICE cars, and queuing for petrol/diesel in the past.



Interesting, might go a research that opinion more.

indeed

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/14/copp...rt-supply.html

[WTFH]

wrong. https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric...an-petrol-and/

Except that link does say that tyre wear is greater (you just have to read past the bits about brakes, etc)

Unsurprising since Teslas weigh 300 - 1000kg more than the equivalent ICE car. Or do you deny that they weigh more?