Whoopsi

[vetran]

Is she? She said the Holocaust was fundamentally about humans being horrific to each other not specifically it being a racial purge. We should surely be able to have that sort of discussion?

Now in the end she got onto that ground which is hardly a massive insight the films linked above are quite powerful and explain teh breadth of offenses but she ran through a nice minefield of her own making by first dismissing the central racial element in the NAZI ideology because one group was not black (it was which shows her ignorance). Sorry that is offensive whichever way you present it. Saying it can't be racist unless one party is black is just stupid it is very telling of her attitudes.

"If you're going to do this, then let's be truthful about it. Because the Holocaust isn't about race. No, it's not about race."

Co-host Joy Behar pointed out that the Nazis said the Jews were a different race.

Goldberg said: "But it's not about race. It's not. It's about man's inhumanity to other man."

"But it's about white supremacy," responded co-host Ana Navarro. "It's about going after Jews and Gypsies and Roma."

"But these are two white groups of people," countered Goldberg.

Co-host Sara Haines pointed out that the Nazis "didn't see them as white".

Goldberg continued: "But you're missing the point! The minute you turn it into race, it goes down this alley. Let's talk about it for what it is. It's how people treat each other. It's a problem."

We can of course talk about the terrible atrocities committed by the NAZI's, Communists, Empires (all of them not just the British Empire) but lets not forget the atrocities in Africa that are happening right now. So Whoopi lets hear you talk about that. We could do with fixing them and you have the profile & funds to help.

By the way Polanski & Cosby are still both rapists!

[Lance]

Have you not heard of Ethiopian Jews?

They aren't converts.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hist...ws_in_Ethiopia

but were they black, white or Jewish?

The article is vague.
It does talk about people who practice Judaism. Which is people who may, nor may not be Jewish. The religion is different to the race. Jews are the only case where a race and a religion share the same title, but are defined differently.

[SueEllen]

but were they black, white or Jewish?

They are ethnically Jewish so regarded as black Jews.

[La Petite Valse]

I don't think that is true is it. There are black jews, indian jews etc. They are definitely a 'group' but I am not sure anyone has definitely said they are a race. People

Genetic studies on all those groups have linked them back to the same ancient population originating in the Middle East.

So it goes...

[northernladuk]

Genetic studies on all those groups have linked them back to the same ancient population originating in the Middle East.

So it goes...

I'm certain they do but there should be a name for that genetic group for their race, not the more religious term Jew which would make it simpler. Maybe a bad example but could be like calling Vikings a race which it clearly isn't for the same reasons but it's accepted they aren't where as with Jews it's a lot more grey. It's a strange world the more you dig in to it. Black and white move to grey the more you read up. All very interesting stuff.

[Gibbon]

I'm certain they do but there should be a name for that genetic group for their race, not the more religious term Jew which would make it simpler. Maybe a bad example but could be like calling Vikings a race which it clearly isn't for the same reasons but it's accepted they aren't where as with Jews it's a lot more grey. It's a strange world the more you dig in to it. Black and white move to grey the more you read up. All very interesting stuff.

Like a lot of strange things it was probably to do with the Romans. They gave them a dispensation from oaths to the emperor as it involved the emperors divinity on earth, in return they had to pay a extra tax and they weren't allowed to convert others. They recognised them as a separate ethnicity with their own religion.

[David71]

I'm a Christian father to 3 Jewish children because my wife, their mother, is Jewish. I've lived in Israel for many years and while my wife is completely secular (as were her parents), my brother-in-law is an Orthodox settler living in the West Bank, we're good friends and I've been welcomed in his Shul when visiting. One of my favourite photos of my eldest daughter is of her sitting in the lap of her great grandfather who was a holocaust (and later a gulag) survivor - staying alive and making babies is the biggest f'you to any Nazi / holocaust denier.
All of this is just to 'prove' I've got some idea when I say, 'Is Judaism a race or religion' is a question even Jews can't agree on and argue about!
To get back on track, most Jewish people I've been listening to and Jewish blogs I've been reading agree that Whoopi is NOT an anti-Semite and just probably needs to have a bit of a 'strong' think about how she uses her words and how (probably & hopefully unintentionally) what she said WAS insensitive and more than a little insulting.
FYI: a Christian with a Jewish maternal Grandmother in Nazi Germany would have been in the ovens, it wasn't just based on a persons religion but on their heritage; if you interested there are 'scientific charts' detailing how it was decided if a person was a Jew, a 'mongrel' or an aryan; what some people find weird (but is isn't if you really think about it) is that the State Of Israel used the Nuremburg Laws when deciding who would qualify for the Right of Return to Israel - you'd be surprised how many 'Christians' have the right to emigrate and settle in Israel based on a Jewish (maternal) Great Grannie that no-one can hardly remember.
Sorry for the long post!

[NotAllThere]

Whoopi muddies the waters by implying it can't be racist if both groups are white.

According to racists, Jews aren't white. According to anti-racists, Jews are white. They can't win. David Baddiel wrote "Jews don't count" about such issues, where often at best, racism against Jews isn't seen as important as racism against ... what is it now? ... oh yes, people of colour. Worth a read.

Making a distinction between antisemitism and racism isn't helpful. They're both bloody awful things.

A Jewish friend of mine (I didn't realise she was Jewish until she told me about this incident), was recently very upset to find that someone had sprayed "No Jews In Switzerland" on a bridge in her home town. This is what she said:

When faced with this kind of blatant antisemitism, it‘s not about me personally. On the contrary, everything that makes me - my deeds, ideals, motivations, political agendas and even my spiritual practice fade away, become nothing. The only thing remaining is my Jewish ancestry which usually doesn‘t define me much. But suddenly it‘s the only thing that matters. This is deeply scary and very disturbing.

I'm pretty sure that when someone is reduced similarly, based on the colour of their skin, they feel pretty much the same.

Racism or antisemitism? Who cares! Both are equally vile.

[NotAllThere]

Etymologically speaking, anti-semitic could also be applied to "ethnic Muslims" - i.e. ones that can trace their ancestry back to Abram/Ishmael, since they are also descendents of Shem.

It could be, but that's not its origin. The term first appeared in print in 1879 (in German) and described those people who are against the phenomenom of "Semitism" (a term the antisemites themselves coined) - which was about the encroachment of Jewish culture on German society. They formed the League of Antisemites and claimed that their ideas were different from previous forms of anti-Jewish sentiment. As Hayes (2017) explains, antisemites claimed to be against a phenomenon they themselves invented, ‘Semitism’. They specifically targetted only Jews, not other Semitic people.

Anti Jewish was things like "Christ killers". Antisemitism is things like ZOG, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc.

[d000hg]

Making a distinction between antisemitism and racism isn't helpful. They're both bloody awful things.

I shall have to disagree, though on the wider point of course you're correct. My question was from academic curiosity rather than because one is 'better' or 'worse' but I think it's important we know what the terms we throw around ever more frequently mean, and that they're used correctly. If you had cancer markers in your blood you wouldn't say "let's not find out if it's lung or bowel, they're both awful prognoses". How you respond and treat evil can be targeted when you know more clearly what it is. Is a man treating a black lesbian terribly because she's black, female or gay? I would say that distinction is not unimportant.

And legally there may be different ramifications to acting based on racial Vs religious Vs whatever. Holocaust denial is of course illegal in some countries and some people seem to be pointing fingers in that direction at Whoopi.

If she hadn't done the whole "they're all white" gaffe I'd have a lot of sympathy with her against the baying hordes, as it is I'm - as I opened with - torn.