ridiculous snowflakery

[OwlHoot]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-59494786

Oh that. I thought we were due another snow storm! Brrr!

[vetran]

Maybe they can call it "The King of Benin" and explain the history round that?

[hobnob]

Educate them that black is linked to the banks and businesses going from being in the red and going in to the black. If they then still say it should be changed cause it's racist then they really shouldn't be allowed to voice their stupid opinions.

According to Wikipedia, that's a relatively recent interpretation (from 1981), whereas people have been using the term "Black Friday" for the day after Thanksgiving since 1951:
Black Friday (shopping) - Wikipedia

More generally:
"For centuries, the adjective "black" has been applied to days upon which calamities occurred. Many events have been described as "Black Friday", although the most significant such event in American history was the Panic of 1869"

I think that "black = bad" is the association that some people are trying to get away from. In a similar way, there's an argument that firewalls should have an "allow list" and a "block list", rather than a whitelist and a blacklist.

[northernladuk]

More generally:
"For centuries, the adjective "black" has been applied to days upon which calamities occurred. Many events have been described as "Black Friday", although the most significant such event in American history was the Panic of 1869"

I think that "black = bad" is the association that some people are trying to get away from. In a similar way, there's an argument that firewalls should have an "allow list" and a "block list", rather than a whitelist and a blacklist.

It seems utterly ridiculous to me that people link racism blindly to stuff just because it has black in it. Blacklist was used as far back as 1600 before slavery, blackball from the 1600s. It's a good point about getting away from black being bad but it's been the way for ever. You can't just rewrite what could be argued to be human nature in the name of racism.

[hobnob]

It seems utterly ridiculous to me that people link racism blindly to stuff just because it has black in it.

I agree with that. In the context of the pub (where this discussion started), I don't think there's anything wrong with "The Black Hound". Similarly, I don't think there's any need to rebrand blackboards as chalkboards, although I don't know whether they actually exist in schools anymore!

Looking at software testing, there's a distinction between "white box" (where you can see the internals) and "black box" (where you can't). Those terms aren't ideal, because white isn't the same as transparent, so "clear box" and "opaque box" might be more meaningful. However, I don't think they have anything to do with racism, so there's no need to change them because of that.

[vetran]

It seems utterly ridiculous to me that people link racism blindly to stuff just because it has black in it. Blacklist was used as far back as 1600 before slavery, blackball from the 1600s. It's a good point about getting away from black being bad but it's been the way for ever. You can't just rewrite what could be argued to be human nature in the name of racism.

Slavery is far older than the 1600s. European involvement in purchasing African slaves may have started in the 1500s but biblical and pre biblical references detail slavery and trade in slaves of pretty much every race well before Moses and even Noah (nee Gilgamesh).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ncient%20world.

Slavery is the third oldest profession. NLyUK pursues the first, War is second and then selling / keeping enemy captives as slaves is the third. The Israelites & Spartacus were slaves while we lived in caves/mud huts in the UK.

Wholesale selling of their brethren into slavery to foreigners was already rampant in Africa in the 700s, the customers were Arabs way before Drake got there in 1567 at the vanguard of English trade missions a few hundred years after the Spanish & Portuguese. This idea that the Europeans have all the guilt seems to be driven by an apparent greed for compensation. I look forward to them getting money out of the Saudis first.

It seems the strategy is keep stirring the pot until it pays out!

The origin of black lists is unclear I assumed it was derived from the same roots as Black / white Magic which would make sense those religious types have a long history of discrimination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_magic

Summers also highlights the etymological development of the term nigromancer, in common use from 1200 to approximately 1500, (Latin: niger, black; Greek: μαντεία, divination), broadly "one skilled in the black arts".^[6]

Remember few Europeans would have seen an African in 1200 though a few influential people would know Greek & Latin.

Now Block and allow lists are a more accurate description and I have no objection to changing something with archaic origins if it offends a reasonable person for a decent reason. Preserving history of pub names is one thing, clarity in technology is far more interesting.

Similar oddness for the words Master & Slave

Master comes from the Latin adverb magis (“more”). It first appeared in English over a thousand years ago, referring to people who had authority over others, whether as rulers, employers, teachers, or father

And Slave comes from Slav (from slavic the commonly taken slaves before Europeans got anywhere near Africa).

[vetran]

I agree with that. In the context of the pub (where this discussion started), I don't think there's anything wrong with "The Black Hound". Similarly, I don't think there's any need to rebrand blackboards as chalkboards, although I don't know whether they actually exist in schools anymore!

Looking at software testing, there's a distinction between "white box" (where you can see the internals) and "black box" (where you can't). Those terms aren't ideal, because white isn't the same as transparent, so "clear box" and "opaque box" might be more meaningful. However, I don't think they have anything to do with racism, so there's no need to change them because of that.

Opaque & Clear make a good substitute!

[Whorty]

It seems utterly ridiculous to me that people link racism blindly to stuff just because it has black in it. Blacklist was used as far back as 1600 before slavery, blackball from the 1600s. It's a good point about getting away from black being bad but it's been the way for ever. You can't just rewrite what could be argued to be human nature in the name of racism.

But who came up with these terms? A black person or a white person? Why wasn't 'white' the negative term and 'black' the positive term?

So yes, been around for centuries, but that doesn't mean it should still stay. Head chopping and hanging had been around for centuries, do you think we should keep that too?

Re this pub sign, black is not being used as a negative term, it's descriptive of the dog's colour, so seems logical to keep it (as they have). Bitch is not a 'nice' word these days, so seems reasonable to change it to hound.

Interesting that it's white middle aged men, who have zero connection to where the pub is located, who are so vociferous on this.

[TheDude]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-59494786

It's ironic how so many who complain about snowflake culture are themselves so quick to take offence.

[Gibbon]

But who came up with these terms? A black person or a white person? Why wasn't 'white' the negative term and 'black' the positive term?

Because they are synonyms for light and dark. Good things happen in the light (sun light) and bad things happen when its black (no sun light). Most early religions have this concept of light = good dark = bad. And is not Christ the 'light of the world'? With good reason as we depend on sunlight for life. Given that us whiteys have only been around for for a few 10,000 years I would edge that the terms were indeed used by black people before the escape from Africa @40K years ago.