Brexit win - 11 threads into one

[Churchill]

Before we all get carried away with this, can someone explain to me who would gain out of holding a referendum?

Does anyone even know what the referendum question would be?

What is it for, what would it tell us that we don't already know?

Do we really want to stir this up at the very moment we are trying to avoid a financial meltdown?

It's not a case of "lack of democracy". I don't think many people have thought this through.

It's in response to this.

[Arturo Bassick]

Europe

The Government believes that Britain should play a leading role in an enlarged European Union, but that no further areas of power should be transferred to Brussels without a referendum. This approach strikes the right balance between constructive engagement with the EU to deal with the issues that affect us all, and protecting our national sovereignty.
We will continue to be an active and activist participant in the European Union, with the goal of ensuring that Europe is equipped to face the challenges of the 21st century: global competitiveness, global warming and global poverty.
We will ensure that there is no further transfer of sovereignty or areas of power over the course of the Parliament.
We have introduced a Bill in order to amend the 1972 European Communities Act so that any proposed future treaty that transferred areas of power, or competences, would be subject to a referendum on that treaty - a 'referendum lock'.
We have introduced a United Kingdom Sovereignty clause to make it clear that ultimate authority remains with Parliament.
We will ensure that Britain does not join or prepare to join the Euro in this Parliament.
We are strongly defending the UK's national interests in the EU budget negotiations and agree that the EU budget should only focus on those areas where the EU can add value.
We are pressing for the European Parliament to have only one seat, in Brussels.
We support the further enlargement of the EU subject to all candidates meeting the strict accession criteria.

From the Tory election manifesto.

[Mich the Tester]

It's in response to this.

100,000 names! Wow! that's nearly 0.17% of the population of the UK!

[Churchill]

100,000 names! Wow! that's nearly 0.17% of the population of the UK!

Fair is fair, the deal was get 100,000 names and it will go before Parliament. It did go before Parliament and got bounced.

[Doggy Styles]

Nothing to be gained at the moment - just something the euro-sceptics dredge up every now and then.

I'm a bit of euro-sceptic, but this referendum business is a waste of time at the moment.

How can you ask a sensible question of the British public when you're in the middle of sovereign crisis management, and nobody knows what the situation will be in a week's time, let alone over the next few years?

This should have been done before signing away powers in the Lisbon treaty, or even before Maastricht. Getting powers back is a different kettle of fish - you don't necessarily need a referendum for that.

[xoggoth]

daft and dangerous laws if we only went on popular opinion

Far fewer than we get now in my opinion, people know what sort of society they want and isn't that what should matter most in a democracy? What goes with human nature and wants, with some obvious limitations, is what works.

It is government policies that are shear lunacy, driven by misguided idealism and egotism. A united Europe is a great idea but it has to be implemented slowly as there are a great many things, prosperity, economic structures, beliefs and attitudes, cultures, that need to converge for it to stand a chance of working. These bastards have to rush it, so they can say "look what I've acheived in my lifetime"

[xoggoth]

Ceefax had a great list this morning, unfortunately can't easily get online AFAIK, of all the times a referendum has been promised by political parties and all the times that further integration has happened with no consultation. It filled three pages.

Maybe if we shot the bastards and hung them up like Mussolini every time they break a major promise we might get better government.

[Churchill]

Ceefax had a great list this morning, unfortunately can't easily get online AFAIK, of all the times a referendum has been promised by political parties and all the times that further integration has happened with no consultation. It filled three pages.

Maybe if we shot the bastards and hung them up like Mussolini every time they break a major promise we might get better government.

Before or after we get the trains running on time?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Far fewer than we get now in my opinion, people know what sort of society they want and isn't that what should matter most in a democracy? What goes with human nature and wants, with some obvious limitations, is what works.

No it isn't - for a few reasons.

Opinions change like the wind - what is popular and fashionable this week won't be next week.
Some people's messed-up view of what they would like society to be would destroy most of our freedoms - and there is a real risk that in any given week they could be in the majority.
Just because I may be in a minority (opposed to ID cards, for example) doesn't mean my rights shouldn't be respected - but in mob rule they aren't.
We don't have any written constitutional rights so anything could be fair game.
Who determines what is a majority anyway on a single issue - given the voting turnout we usually get that would be crucial.

It is government policies that are shear lunacy, driven by misguided idealism and egotism. A united Europe is a great idea but it has to be implemented slowly as there are a great many things, prosperity, economic structures, beliefs and attitudes, cultures, that need to converge for it to stand a chance of working. These bastards have to rush it, so they can say "look what I've acheived in my lifetime"

I have some sympathy with that view, but the solution doesn't lie in a referendum IMHO.

[Pondlife]

What % of Joe Public would a) read and b) understand the implications of the treaty? Compare that with the number of people who would get the gist from a Littlejohn "you couldn't make it up" rant.

Seems to me that we'd all end up winning the First Annual Montgomery Burns Award for Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Excellence.