Cameron in Europe - Good or Crap?

[xoggoth]

But that's what actually happens in this country, isn't it?

Don't disagree that our democracy is a joke but at least when we voted we knew Camoron or Ratface would be the leader, had a pretty fair idea who the main ministers were likely to be and what the general policy direction would be, even if you don't like the details. Darn site better than being ruled by someone you have never heard of, put in by deals between leaders of other countries.

Agree on Switzerland. A proper PR system and referenda on defined issues. That's what we need. (And guns!)

[AtW]

Agree on Switzerland. A proper PR system and referenda on defined issues. That's what we need. (And guns!)

And 2500 franks minimum wage for everybody (including not working) - Switzerland will be the first country in the world to vote on having a national wage of £1,700 a month | Europe | News | The Independent

btw, please find me in long list of EU laws that you've referenced those that deal with the following important subjects:
1) crazy high stamp duty on house purchases
2) massively increased dividend taxes
3) generally very high income tax rates AND crazy national insurance system for "employes" that does not even have upper cap for "contributions"
4) crazy inheritance laws
5) lack of new houses
6) etc etc etc

Things that matter are really controlled by UK Govt - allowing them to get out of EU will only make it easier for them to screw almost everybody in UK, and for that reason I'll vote to STAY IN EU.

[AtW]

Your Labour MP, Gisela Stuart is campaigning to LEAVE, so you are calling her a cretin, what does that make you, when in a posting a few months ago, you said you would be making a donation of £10,000 for her to fight the next election!

In fact I think you are right - Gisela took the micky now with this out of EU thing, she must be punished, so I won't give her a penny and instead will spend £10k on good causes by the end of next month.

[xoggoth]

Many UK laws are crap but at least you have a chance to overturn them every 5 years, much more difficult to overturn EU laws.
You could even lobby your MP, get enough signatures, it may make a difference. Who are you going to write to in the European Commission?
Can you be sure that at some time in the future there will not be EU laws you don't like? Can you be totally confident that some regulation, on internet security or whatever, will not severely affect your business? What are you going to do then apart from toe the line?

I am not saying EU laws bad, UK laws good, often quite the opposite, just that at least in a free UK we would have more control to get shot of bad legislation.

PS Shortage of housing is hardly unrelated to the EU is it? You don't take in 300,000+ migrants every year without an impact on our resources.
PPS Crazy inheritance laws. Funny, somebody was telling me about laws in another country, forget which, where there is no freedom at all, it has to be left to blood relatives. I think before you moan about UK laws you should check what they are in other EU nations, they could be even dafter. Maybe theirs will be the model adopted by the EU.

[xoggoth]

instead will spend £10k on good causes by the end of next month

Did I mention I was homeless? Posting this from my laptop in the gutter.

[AtW]

Did I mention I was homeless? Posting this from my laptop in the gutter.

If you vote to leave EU then you might just end up there, only without a laptop

[AtW]

PS Shortage of housing is hardly unrelated to the EU is it? You don't take in 300,000+ migrants every year without an impact on our resources.

Do you really think migrants that hitch a ride in trucks would suddenly stop going to UK??? If anything they'll get green light all across EU to as close to UK border as possible, with only difference being that there will no longer be UK border control outside at all.

300k migrants in country of 60 mln isn't a problem, the real problem is that UK does not build enough houses - that's the issue, maybe put migrants to work on that - build 9 houses and 10th is theirs, including citizenship?

PPS Crazy inheritance laws. Funny, somebody was telling me about laws in another country, forget which, where there is no freedom at all, it has to be left to blood relatives. I think before you moan about UK laws you should check what they are in other EU nations, they could be even dafter. Maybe theirs will be the model adopted by the EU.

I live here so I care about laws in this country. UK inheritance laws became much more complex than they used to, which was something along the lines - above £X the tax is 40%, it was not fair but at least it was easy. Camoron/Gidiot pitched to increase threshold to £1 mln and they've done so in a way that made everything complex - instead of just increasing £X to £1 mln they added lots of red tape, whose sole objective was to effectively reneg on their promise as much as it's possible.

[Flashman]

btw, please find me in long list of EU laws that you've referenced those that deal with the following important subjects:
1) crazy high stamp duty on house purchases
2) massively increased dividend taxes
3) generally very high income tax rates AND crazy national insurance system for "employes" that does not even have upper cap for "contributions"
4) crazy inheritance laws
5) lack of new houses
6) etc etc etc


Things that matter are really controlled by UK Govt - allowing them to get out of EU will only make it easier for them to screw almost everybody in UK, and for that reason I'll vote to STAY IN EU.

You've not really got the hang of this democracy thing.

[AtW]

You've not really got the hang of this democracy thing.

Democracy as in rule of the people?

[Waldorf]

As per Michael Gove:

My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time.

But our membership of the European Union prevents us being able to change huge swathes of law and stops us being able to choose who makes critical decisions which affect all our lives. Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out. We can take out our anger on elected representatives in Westminster but whoever is in Government in London cannot remove or reduce VAT, cannot support a steel plant through troubled times, cannot build the houses we need where they’re needed and cannot deport all the individuals who shouldn’t be in this country. I believe that needs to change. And I believe that both the lessons of our past and the shape of the future make the case for change compelling.

AtW - I've realised what this stands for, A Total ******