Confused Britain

[Zero Liability]

Still higher than that of some eurotwatcrat... considering that their effective power is next to nil.

[vetran]

What's the "democratic accountability" for the Queen, the House of Lords? Is the PM in this country elected directly by the people? No. he/she is appointed by the Queen.

so two wrongs make a right?

good argument

[DodgyAgent]

What's the "democratic accountability" for the Queen, the House of Lords? Is the PM in this country elected directly by the people? No. he/she is appointed by the Queen.

The instant reaction of someone losing an argument is to sidetrack it onto something else. OK then you explain why the UK govt has less accountability than the EU.

[petergriffin]

so two wrongs make a right?

good argument

Consistency is the key. I would sympathise with the eurosceptics if they were true libertarians and also fought against unelected bureaucrats in Britain, but they don't.

The German eurosceptics earn my respect, though I don't agree with them.

If it was for me, I'd rather have a directly elected President of Europe with a true EU government, not this muppet European Commission or whatever it is called.

[petergriffin]

The instant reaction of someone losing an argument is to sidetrack it onto something else. OK then you explain why the UK govt has less accountability than the EU.

Members of the UK government are elected by the people (same as members of the European commision or EU council or whatever it's called) but the government as a whole is appointed by the Queen.

Did the Lib-dem voters want a government with the Tories? Surely not. If a Uk government loses a majority, you still have to wait 4 years. Imagine now that half of Tories MP defect to UKIP. The governement would still be in power till next year.

[DodgyAgent]

Members of the UK government are elected by the people (same as members of the European commision or EU council or whatever it's called) but the government as a whole is appointed by the Queen.

Did the Lib-dem voters want a government with the Tories? Surely not. If a Uk government loses a majority, you still have to wait 4 years. Imagine now that half of Tories MP defect to UKIP. The governement would still be in power till next year.

What exactly is undemocratic about that. as for the queen she has no power so quite why you feel the need to bring her into the equation I do not know.

[Zero Liability]

Members of the UK government are elected by the people (same as members of the European commision or EU council or whatever it's called) but the government as a whole is appointed by the Queen.

Did the Lib-dem voters want a government with the Tories? Surely not. If a Uk government loses a majority, you still have to wait 4 years. Imagine now that half of Tories MP defect to UKIP. The governement would still be in power till next year.

All of which I agree with, and it is inherent in how most western democracies operate (and ultimately even direct democracies), but adding the EU on top of that, off the back of this just compounds the issue. The HoL also has a mostly consultative function these days. As DA said, the Queen is a figurehead. Eurocrats are by far more powerful. I'm not a huge fan of democracy as a form of government but the EU plays it up all the time, even when if exemplifies it only in a very formalistic, attenuated sense.

The EU as a free trade zone would be much less of an issue, but there is no desire for this within it.

[petergriffin]

All of which I agree with, and it is inherent in how most western democracies operate (and ultimately even direct democracies), but adding the EU on top of that, off the back of this just compounds the issue. The HoL also has a mostly consultative function these days.

The EU as a free trade zone would be much less of an issue, but there is no desire for this within it.

What you have just said shows exactly why Britain is confused. It is clear that there is an anti-EU and anti-immigrant sentiment. What is not clear is what the solution should be.

A noisy and loud minority of voters would quite gladly get rid of both (the EU and the immigrants). Is this a responsible approach? would the British citizen better off with no ties with the EU member states? This has not been discussed yet. Farage&co just don't want to speak about that.

[minestrone]

I am surprised we have made it to this page and nobody has piped up with UKIP calypso.

[petergriffin]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4283b61a-5...44feab7de.html

Sir, As a Brit working in Brussels I am one of many UK citizens who benefit from the EU Treaty provisions on the free movement of labour (“Cameron takes Britain closer to the exit door”, editorial, October 21). As an EU citizen it was relatively straightforward to secure employment here. As an employer in Brussels I have tried to recruit from outside the EU and have learnt from first-hand experience how complex it is for non-EU citizens to get a job.
If the UK were to leave the EU, I will no longer be an EU citizen, and it will presumably become as complex for my employers to employ me. They may well decide, as I myself have done in the past, that it is simply too difficult. I guess I’ll then just have to return to the UK and, with no guarantee of employment there, claim benefit. Probably not what Mr Cameron had in mind but, then again, as a non-UK resident I probably won’t get a vote.