Contracted Hours Madness

**cojak** · 9 May 2012, 18:32

Get the contract checked with Qdos and let them sort it out.

**Alf W** · 9 May 2012, 19:46

What does the contract you signed stipulate?

**BolshieBastard** · 9 May 2012, 20:57

Originally posted by Contractoid View Post

I am at a new client and got the interview via one of usual specialist agencies. The client in question has like many outsourced their contracted HR management to a well known 3rd party HR outfit. So the contract chain is the usual ludicrous 3 layers - Me - My Ltd - Specialist Agency - Outsource Agency - Client. I could open up a debate on the margin insanity this represents to the client but i'm sure that's been debated elsewhere on here!

I have now been approached by my direct report stating that the Outsource Agencies terms with the client are an 8 hour day not including lunch. I have 2 issues with this -

Neither I nor my Ltd has a contract with this company so im not exactly sure why they think they can enforce this - i'm checking the legality of this.
Even if there is a way of enforcing this, isn't this directed management and potentially IR35 territory
What happened to Outputs and Delivery - i'm seeing this more and more

Anyone with similar experiences or thoughts on this?

Are you saying you should have a paid lunch or that the client wants you to have an unpaid lunch break?

I doubt very much either of these things will be in any contract between your co and the agent.

I've had this mentioned once or twice but just point out to the client that I am flexible if and when I take a lunch break.

**GillsMan** · 10 May 2012, 07:22

Originally posted by BolshieBastard View Post

Are you saying you should have a paid lunch or that the client wants you to have an unpaid lunch break?

It's not clear, but I think his issue is with the length of the total day rather than whether or not he gets paid for lunch. I.e. I think he was expecting a 9-5 day and it looks like Client are trying to get him to do 9-6.

It's a tricky one, but ultimately, I can't let clients dictate hours to me. Usually on my first or second day, I send a 'Housekeeping' email. In it, I outline any holidays booked and days unavailable, the hours I work and any WFH requirements (where appropriate). Occasionally, I get a bit of push-back from the clients, in which case I negotiate. But I keep copies of emails in an 'Outside IR35' folder as evidence, along with any other emails where client is clearly giving me D&C over my projects. Possibly OTT, but it works for me.

**SimonMac** · 10 May 2012, 08:26

Originally posted by Alf W View Post

What does the contract you signed stipulate?

WHS!

**eek** · 10 May 2012, 08:58

Originally posted by Alf W View Post

What does the contract you signed stipulate?

Probably the catch all phrase "professional working day".

**Contractoid** · 10 May 2012, 12:52

Thanks for the comments everyone. I have checked and there is no contract with my Ltd and the Outsource Agency so this whole 8 hour thing has no substance. Maybe I have been lucky with all my previous assignments (over 12 years!) where the client’s primary concern is the quality of the work being produced, hitting deadlines and overall professionalism. This current client is obsessive about time management as I have just discovered. Another Interim left last Friday and he spilled the beans on his experiences. He told me that he had been pulled up on things like taking longer than 30 minutes for lunch, and even (believe it or not) taking too long for toilet breaks! I hadn’t realised I had joined a call centre!

Originally posted by eek View Post

Probably the catch all phrase "professional working day".

Professional Working Day? Don’t get me started on that time management stealth bomber –

“What’s a Professional Working Day?”
“It means you should work more hours than what would normally be expected for a Professional”
“Oh, so what would normally be expected of a Professional?”
“Well, more than the hours that Non Professionals would be expected to work”
“Oh, so what do non Professionals work here normally then?”
“I don’t know, we don’t have any non Professionals working here”
“So let me see if I have got this straight. I’m expected to work an unspecified amount of hours, above and beyond an unspecified standard which itself is slightly more than another unspecified standard which doesn’t exist in this company”
“Yes, you have got it”
“Right, so how many hours should I be working then, what actually constitutes a Professional Working Day in this company and will keep you happy?”
“What I say it is on a day to day basis”
“Oh, well that’s clear then”
“I’ll let you know how you are getting on”
“Thanks”

**BlasterBates** · 10 May 2012, 17:44

It looks like there will be a crack down on IR35, and anyone who isn't working independently on specific objectives in a contract will be a potential target.

You need to be determining your own hours and way of working.

You should be coming in as you please, perhaps working some of the time in your own office. If you attend a weekly project meeting and get assigned weekly activities it's a big pointer inside IR35. You need a deliverable, what isn't acceptable is being assigned jobs to do.

A good idea to read a history of wins and loses in IR35, it's an eye opener, and I think would be a sobering read for any contractor being bossed around at work.

The best is to find a "win" that is similar to your own case.

**Platypus** · 11 May 2012, 10:28

Very nice link, thanks.

Contracted Hours Madness