Reply to: Contracted Hours Madness

[jezosaurus]

Nope. The boss and several spies watch contractors like hawks on arrival and departure times - even lunch breaks and in one case toilet break times! Then they shop you in - its happened to other contractors (no longer there - I wonder why?). Doesn't matter how good your delivery is - its all about being seen to have your bum on your seat for at least 8 hours. This place is a joke.

With all this petty bickering going on, it's not exactly surprising that they have to use contractors to actually get the job done.

I'd start at 7, eat my sarnies at the desk, and leave at 3:30. That leaves a generous 1/2 hour for the bog and any incoming phone calls, and time later for whatever else you might need to do, like interviews and outgoing phone calls.

I would not take a laptop in, and I would quite openly point out that as a contractor, you are an expensive resource that the company is buying in because their job ain't going to get done without it, and as such, they ought to be treating you like some valuable asset and not like a YTS trainee.

You have a responsibility to the client to make sure their money is well spent, and treating you like tulip is not doing that at all.

Of course, this will wind them up no end.

But professionalism dictates that you should at least try to deliver, and that means staying on for a lot longer. And that won't happen unless they are confronted with their twatism and realise they've got to do something about it.

Snooping employees are not happy employees either, and unhappy employees are not productive.

[SueEllen]

I must say on this one I have been far too complacent as I could have found out what the working culture here was like from a number of different sources. Won't be doing that again!

I don't think you were too complacent I think you presumed that any client who hired temporary workers was results driven as this saves them money.

When the client is sold off and restructured, or goes out of business in years to come then at least you know why.

[Contractoid]

The main reasons for stating the length of a day is to avoid arguments between the agency and the client's bean counters when the agency raises invoices.

However few clients actually invoke such hourly commitments strictly as any good manager knows if you are inflexible with people regardless of whether they are permies, contractors or temps then they will be inflexible with you when you have a tight deadline to meet.

There is actually no way to find out how inflexible a client is except to:
1. Ask the agency, and,
2. Ask on initially meeting the client questions about their working environment. That way you can find out if how you work fits in with them.

However in both cases you may not get the real answer.

The agency may not know because they haven't been told the truth by the HR person who deals with the contracts, and you may not be interviewed by anyone on the actual project team. It's not uncommon to be interviewed by someone who is on the project team who leaves before you start and the reason they left is not always for bad reasons.

Yep all very good points. So I would also add another bit of advice and that's to use your network, LinkedIn, other Interim colleagues etc to investigate what its really like to work at a potential client so you are in a position to weigh up all the various factors of working environment, implications to your future engagement options, day rate etc. I must say on this one I have been far too complacent as I could have found out what the working culture here was like from a number of different sources. Won't be doing that again!

[SueEllen]

Based on my experience my advice would be as follows. Im guessing most of you like me check your contract thoroughly for any nasties before signing anyway. If you have an intermediary Agency involved between you and your primary Agency specifically ask for any terms they have agreed in their contract with them that affect your day to day work environment, especially working hours etc. If there are any hourly commitments or expectations involved either directly or indirectly implies my advice is to walk away (actually run away), you are likely setting yourself up for a stinker engagement where your delivery quality will be irrelevant and you will be treated like a lepper by disgruntled permies.

The main reasons for stating the length of a day is to avoid arguments between the agency and the client's bean counters when the agency raises invoices.

However few clients actually invoke such hourly commitments strictly as any good manager knows if you are inflexible with people regardless of whether they are permies, contractors or temps then they will be inflexible with you when you have a tight deadline to meet.

There is actually no way to find out how inflexible a client is except to:
1. Ask the agency, and,
2. Ask on initially meeting the client questions about their working environment. That way you can find out if how you work fits in with them.

However in both cases you may not get the real answer.

The agency may not know because they haven't been told the truth by the HR person who deals with the contracts, and you may not be interviewed by anyone on the actual project team. It's not uncommon to be interviewed by someone who is on the project team who leaves before you start and the reason they left is not always for bad reasons.

[Contractoid]

Agree with NLUK. You've got to expect the client has 'some' control over when you're there and when you're not as long as its purely for business reasons.

Again with the leave or whatever you want to call it. Don't ask for holidays but I think its only fair to advise client that you wont be around for this time and ensure its not going to cause them a problem.

Sure, i'm up for this. I have had some clients give me legitimate reasons why I need to be around at certain times, maybe on particular days for important meetings etc and I have always complied. But to try to impose a minimum working week on you, as you might do to a permanent employee is just unacceptable. Ive regularly worked 40+ hour weeks with no lunch breaks because I want to do a great job for the client and have pride in what I deliver - I resent being told to do so by way of contract. As per the other thread -

This is my first ever contract in 12 years where the client has pursued a daily or weekly hour agenda either directly or indirectly and lessons have been learned! I know times are tough and sometimes you have to compromise but any hourly based commitment for contract / project work is a really bad place to be regardless of any IR35 implications. Not in all cases, but its a pretty strong indication of one or both of -

• The culture is all about old school "bums on seats" and less about delivery.
• There is already a tension between permies and contractors. The management are not competent enough to deal with it so they go with the lazy solution of securing consultant visibility through the contract.

Based on my experience my advice would be as follows. Im guessing most of you like me check your contract thoroughly for any nasties before signing anyway. If you have an intermediary Agency involved between you and your primary Agency specifically ask for any terms they have agreed in their contract with them that affect your day to day work environment, especially working hours etc. If there are any hourly commitments or expectations involved either directly or indirectly implies my advice is to walk away (actually run away), you are likely setting yourself up for a stinker engagement where your delivery quality will be irrelevant and you will be treated like a lepper by disgruntled permies.

[psychocandy]

There is nothing wrong with complying with clients policies/drivers. If they have a site shutdown it isn't unreasonable for them to ask you not to attend, it is part of the MOO. Also them suggesting when they would rather you would be available due to delivery constraints isn't unreasonable either.

Neither of the above would be (IMO) considered as direction. Just doing business. I don't think a court would believe that being a contractor gives you carte blanche to do what you want and would understand the client has drivers that may affect your freedom to some extent.

I think how you word your requests and how you deal with it with you client makes the difference. If you approach your requests as a 'holiday request' you have instantly made issue of your own making.

Agree with NLUK. You've got to expect the client has 'some' control over when you're there and when you're not as long as its purely for business reasons.

Again with the leave or whatever you want to call it. Don't ask for holidays but I think its only fair to advise client that you wont be around for this time and ensure its not going to cause them a problem.

[northernladuk]

how about being told when and when not you can "take leave"? Ir35 minefield.

There is nothing wrong with complying with clients policies/drivers. If they have a site shutdown it isn't unreasonable for them to ask you not to attend, it is part of the MOO. Also them suggesting when they would rather you would be available due to delivery constraints isn't unreasonable either.

Neither of the above would be (IMO) considered as direction. Just doing business. I don't think a court would believe that being a contractor gives you carte blanche to do what you want and would understand the client has drivers that may affect your freedom to some extent.

I think how you word your requests and how you deal with it with you client makes the difference. If you approach your requests as a 'holiday request' you have instantly made issue of your own making.

[noter]

how about being told when and when not you can "take leave"? Ir35 minefield.

[northernladuk]

Precisely what i'm now doing. I have also located a very good image of an old fashioned factory clocking in machine, you know the one with the punch cards on a big rack for each worker bee. I have bought the high resolutions version on line. I bring in my own laptop which has this image as a screen wallpaper sat on my desk through the day. The other contractors here pissed themseleves laughing when they saw it. For the rest I think its a bit over their heads.

Well done. That will make you really popular. A good professional way to work. <slow clap>

[Contractoid]

It makes sense to toe the line to a certain degree, just keep focused on the project, do what is required and keep invoicing but the minute someone says you were 10 minutes early/late you just need to be polite and advise them that you have been brought in to do a specific project and that is what you are doing and these time constraints do not apply to you as your an independant contractor.

and rather than get wound up about it, turn it into a bit of a game leave 10 minutes early and arrive 10 minutes early the next day and take 5 minutes extra having a P**s just to wind them up

Precisely what i'm now doing. I have also located a very good image of an old fashioned factory clocking in machine, you know the one with the punch cards on a big rack for each worker bee. I have bought the high resolutions version on line. I bring in my own laptop which has this image as a screen wallpaper sat on my desk through the day. The other contractors here pissed themseleves laughing when they saw it. For the rest I think its a bit over their heads.

[BolshieBastard]

It makes sense to toe the line to a certain degree, just keep focused on the project, do what is required and keep invoicing but the minute someone says you were 10 minutes early/late you just need to be polite and advise them that you have been brought in to do a specific project and that is what you are doing and these time constraints do not apply to you as your an independant contractor.

and rather than get wound up about it, turn it into a bit of a game leave 10 minutes early and arrive 10 minutes early the next day and take 5 minutes extra having a P**s just to wind them up

One project I worked on, the PM was like this (10 minutes late malarky) with some of my contractor colleagues. And, he was a contractor!

[psychocandy]

It makes sense to toe the line to a certain degree, just keep focused on the project, do what is required and keep invoicing but the minute someone says you were 10 minutes early/late you just need to be polite and advise them that you have been brought in to do a specific project and that is what you are doing and these time constraints do not apply to you as your an independant contractor.

and rather than get wound up about it, turn it into a bit of a game leave 10 minutes early and arrive 10 minutes early the next day and take 5 minutes extra having a P**s just to wind them up

Dont forget extended 'logging' time.

[Support Monkey]

That's pretty much were I am at now. Working from home without advance approval at this place will just trigger more hassle and besides i'm a great believer in continuing to be professional in the face of gross non professionalism. I will be leaving this one with my Integrity intact.

It makes sense to toe the line to a certain degree, just keep focused on the project, do what is required and keep invoicing but the minute someone says you were 10 minutes early/late you just need to be polite and advise them that you have been brought in to do a specific project and that is what you are doing and these time constraints do not apply to you as your an independant contractor.

and rather than get wound up about it, turn it into a bit of a game leave 10 minutes early and arrive 10 minutes early the next day and take 5 minutes extra having a P**s just to wind them up

[Contractoid]

Get the job done and ignore their grumbles. If they choose to give you notice that's their call. If you've got something else to go to or don't feel you can tolerate it any longer then quit. You could start working from home a couple of days a week, that should bring it to a conclusion.

That's pretty much were I am at now. Working from home without advance approval at this place will just trigger more hassle and besides i'm a great believer in continuing to be professional in the face of gross non professionalism. I will be leaving this one with my Integrity intact.

[BigTime]

Get the job done and ignore their grumbles. If they choose to give you notice that's their call. If you've got something else to go to or don't feel you can tolerate it any longer then quit. You could start working from home a couple of days a week, that should bring it to a conclusion.