Computer science graduates struggle to secure their first jobs

[Bluenose]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm21dvg8l1go

Interesting article on the state of the graduate IT market echoing some of the posts in the 'State of the Market' discussion.

Investigative reporting is expensive and it takes time but the BBC makes zero mention of outsourcing companies, their tactics, the size of the problem and their effect.

[Protagoras]

Investigative reporting is expensive and it takes time but the BBC makes zero mention of outsourcing companies, their tactics, the size of the problem and their effect.

That would risk offending their political masters with possible financial consequences ...

[oliverson]

The 3rd year of my degree was placement at a company and I picked an absolute belter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequent_Computer_Systems

It was a real eye opener for me, coming from a decade of working in the insurance sector. A totally different industry and one I really enjoyed. Much more laid back in comparison, much more interesting.

With the in-depth Unix training and experience gained at Sequent, I walked into a role as an associate technical consultant straight away on graduation, at an ERP company called SSA (System Software Associates). Decent salary, company car, etc. What a result. I think the 1st class degree in Computer Science (Software Development) and an award for best final year project in the school didn't do me any harm either.

Not just the opportunities the degree gave me, but I really enjoyed the 4 years, though year 3 was quite challenging as my father died. He was in a hospice for a short while and I remember packing my suit up towards the end and heading back north for the inevitable death and funeral. Good friends at uni really helped me through the final year, not work-wise but support, etc.

I was chatting to some neighbours in the local pub a couple of nights ago and one of their sons went to the same university as me. Sadly it was in the covid period, so his placement year never happened and most of his study was from home. That must have been soul destroying. He is in employment though, junior programmer I think, so the degree wasn't a waste for him. I do feel for those graduating nowadays with the state of the economy, hell, the world, the advent of AI, etc.

[edison]

Harsh.
I've always believed that you make your own luck, but I'm considering now that my relative good fortune could be partially down to accidents of history and instinctively moving away from disaster like an ant in a microwave.

I graduated in the 80's from a programme that included a work placement sandwiched between study and coursework.
At the time, there was a high demand, and our year had 100% placement within weeks of graduation. Usually to the same company at which we interned.

I think incorporating internships in education works beautifully, I don't know why more unis don't do it. Too bTech?

Not specifically. Some excellent universities for CS like Bath and Manchester offer 4 year degrees with year long placements in joint CS & Maths degrees for example. A friend's son at Bath is doing a year long data science and AI placement at one of the world's top pharmas.

The challenge for these CS grads is that a lot of them have little useful experience. It's tough but if I was a CS undergrad now, I would do everything in my power to try and get an internship in my summer hols, even if unpaid.

My daughter isn't particularly academic and is at a very ordinary uni doing Media and Communications. But she has better work experience after two years of uni than almost any student I've come across outside of the very top unis, having worked for a web agency, online ecommerce startup and a software company.

There's no guarantee but I'm hopeful that she'll be able to find a graduate level job in the next few months in her final year because TBH, no one will really care about her degree.

[Dorkeaux]

Not specifically. Some excellent universities for CS like Bath and Manchester offer 4 year degrees with year long placements in joint CS & Maths degrees for example. A friend's son at Bath is doing a year long data science and AI placement at one of the world's top pharmas.

The challenge for these CS grads is that a lot of them have little useful experience. It's tough but if I was a CS undergrad now, I would do everything in my power to try and get an internship in my summer hols, even if unpaid.

My daughter isn't particularly academic and is at a very ordinary uni doing Media and Communications. But she has better work experience after two years of uni than almost any student I've come across outside of the very top unis, having worked for a web agency, online ecommerce startup and a software company.

There's no guarantee but I'm hopeful that she'll be able to find a graduate level job in the next few months in her final year because TBH, no one will really care about her degree.

Haha.. We all look down on non-STEM degrees to be sure, but don't write off your daughter's Media degree completely.

I think most of what is taught in uni is not directly useful to your eventual career anyway. What education I had just taught me how to crack a book, study and do basic critical thinking.

To put it another way, if your daughter has some positive work experience and any degree at all she'll satisfy the hiring requirements for any number of employers.

I've worked with youngsters from a company that tests new graduates (mostly) for aptitude in programming and puts them through a boot camp. Then places them in internships, and eventually contracts/jobs. These neubs were very knowledge-absorbant, and were highly valued. They all had wierdly random degrees, but had the talent.

[Sub]

Only difference between IT guy out of school and one out of uni is that latter managed to waste 3-4 years of their life and in many cases get into huge debt. Otherwise, both are clean sheet with equal potential, which mean that former has an advantage.

[NotAllThere]

Only difference between IT guy out of school and one out of uni is that latter managed to waste 3-4 years of their life and in many cases get into huge debt. Otherwise, both are clean sheet with equal potential, which mean that former has an advantage.

Hmm. I guess you just didn't get the A level grades you needed. Never mind.

I think most of what is taught in uni is not directly useful to your eventual career anyway. What education I had just taught me how to crack a book, study and do basic critical thinking.

To put it another way, if your daughter has some positive work experience and any degree at all she'll satisfy the hiring requirements for any number of employers.

I've worked with youngsters from a company that tests new graduates (mostly) for aptitude in programming and puts them through a boot camp. Then places them in internships, and eventually contracts/jobs. These neubs were very knowledge-absorbant, and were highly valued. They all had wierdly random degrees, but had the talent.

Exactly this.

When I entered the workforce on a graduate training course, with 15 other newbies, only 2 of us had IT degrees. The rest were a mixture of science, art and humanities.

My first boss had left school at 16 though, with good O levels. Super smart. He was eventually sponsered by the employer to do an MBA. His boss at the time, funnily enough Mr Tulip, had a degree in Botany.

[sadkingbilly]

Hmm. I guess you just didn't get the A level grades you needed. Never mind.

Exactly this.

When I entered the workforce on a graduate training course, with 15 other newbies, only 2 of us had IT degrees. The rest were a mixture of science, art and humanities.

My first boss had left school at 16 though, with good O levels. Super smart. He was eventually sponsered by the employer to do an MBA. His boss at the time, funnily enough Mr Tulip, had a degree in Botany.

maybe a dichotomy there?
My skills are still very much in demand, though i'm more like your first boss.
and i can spell sponsOred.
Still, you people with degrees can always smugly look down on us from the dole Queue

[willendure]

No disrespect to people without degrees as I am sure there are plenty talented people in that category.

In my experience when it comes to computer programming specifically, I have worked with a large number of people with non-CS degrees and a smaller number of people with CS degrees. Hands down, the ones with CS degrees were miles better at it.

I have always thought programming is a strange profession in that if you have a CS degree its a bit like being a doctor, or lawyer or architect but having to work in teams of people who mainly do not have training in those disciplines and are just sort of winging it. Unthinkable in the case of doctors, lawyers or architects, but maybe those professions carry a much higher level of responsibility for life and law.

[Dorkeaux]

No disrespect to people without degrees as I am sure there are plenty talented people in that category.

In my experience when it comes to computer programming specifically, I have worked with a large number of people with non-CS degrees and a smaller number of people with CS degrees. Hands down, the ones with CS degrees were miles better at it.

I have always thought programming is a strange profession in that if you have a CS degree its a bit like being a doctor, or lawyer or architect but having to work in teams of people who mainly do not have training in those disciplines and are just sort of winging it. Unthinkable in the case of doctors, lawyers or architects, but maybe those professions carry a much higher level of responsibility for life and law.

Your experience is much different from mine.
But then again I don't really know where my colleagues were educated unless they volunteer it.

When they _do_ let me know, there seems to be no correlation of quality to post-secondary education, standing of their uni among the Russell group etc.
But this is anecdotal, of course.

Doctors, lawyers and architects all have professional bodies that inform the ethics, rules, sense of responsibility and expectations of their profession.
Not sure if the universities are responsible for any of that, but the notion that CS graduates have a nobler sensibility or professional ethics than non-CS graduates is risable IME.