Reply to: Can I do 2 Inside IR35 contracts at a time(1st with limited comp & 2nd with umbrella)

[northernladuk]

Bumping up this old thread as I have the chance to take on another contract on a part time basis (2 days per week max). Still not sure if it's worth it or not for those extra 2 days so I may not even take it.

It will depend on the details of the engagement you are already on and the ways of working of the new one. Details are absolutely key here. This is no answer to 'Can i take two gigs on'.

From what I've read there's nothing wrong with having 2 income streams; the main thing I need to consider is working hours. Now, the contract I already have (inside ir35 fwiw) doesn't clearly state the working hours but it just states 37.5 hours a week and then talks about "professional working day".

Is "professional working day" just another less clear way to say 9-5?

So the key thing here is the expecation of your client. The contractual terms can be woolly so it's down to what happens on site. You are inside so generally you can take that as 9-5 as you are likely to be under direction and control of the client. This might not be true in every case but it's a good starting point for an inside gig. If you are under D&C then the expectation of the client is you do 8 hours roughly in line with their working hours. As a rule of thumb, before starting an inside gig, a professional working day will be 8 hours with a core time of 10 - 4. The professional bit gives you flexibility outside those hours. On an outside gig I'd take it as being more flexible but again depends on the client's expectation.

So you need to understand their expecation on the gig you are on. You should know by now. Does your client manager expect you in at 9 and out at 5 in which case that is what it is. You are under D&C remember. If they are pretty cool with the start and end times then there is your expectation. They might not care as long as you deliver the work package but I highly doubt that on an inside gig.

Next understand the expecations of the client on the temp gig. When they say days do they want you set days or two days effort a week. If the second is inside I would expect it's also a full day. If it's outside or delivering a work package it might be just effort. Dig in to that before you sign the contract.

When you've got the expectations then you can decide if it's going to work or not. Again, I believe the general rule for two inside gigs is full days so no chance of combining the two unless you are gonna work on the other clients time which IMO is a no no.

You can of course negotiate and help set their expectations to suit you better. Unlikely on an inside gig but always worth a pop. I'm a late starter, always have been so make that clear from the off so the expectation is set and have had no push back to date. Changing to suit so you can shovel another 2 days in is a very big ask though.

Have a look at where you are and what the next gig wants and come back to us if it's not blatently clear.

[JustKeepSwimming]

Bumping up this old thread as I have the chance to take on another contract on a part time basis (2 days per week max). Still not sure if it's worth it or not for those extra 2 days so I may not even take it.

From what I've read there's nothing wrong with having 2 income streams; the main thing I need to consider is working hours. Now, the contract I already have (inside ir35 fwiw) doesn't clearly state the working hours but it just states 37.5 hours a week and then talks about "professional working day".

Is "professional working day" just another less clear way to say 9-5?

Professional working day is one of those lovely terms many contracts like to use but has no consistent definition and rarely defined in the contract. If you already work the contract then you know what the hours and you know what flexibility they might have.

You can have 2 jobs at the same time. Although legally it's can be quite complex, for example submitting hourly timesheets for the same hours would be fraud, unless you could argue timesheets main purpose isn't accuracy of effort.

[jamesbrown]

Bumping up this old thread as I have the chance to take on another contract on a part time basis (2 days per week max). Still not sure if it's worth it or not for those extra 2 days so I may not even take it.

From what I've read there's nothing wrong with having 2 income streams; the main thing I need to consider is working hours. Now, the contract I already have (inside ir35 fwiw) doesn't clearly state the working hours but it just states 37.5 hours a week and then talks about "professional working day".

Is "professional working day" just another less clear way to say 9-5?

If you have the time, inclination and an agreeable client, fill yer boots. However, unless your existing contract is clear about expectations (according to you, it isn't), you should inform your current client as a matter of courtesy. At that point, you'll discover their expectations. But, honestly, it's better to sort this at contract negotiation time by including a non-exclusivity clause or even avoiding T&M contracts (albeit, highly unlikely if you're working inside IR35). The reality is that your current client probably sees you as a pseudo-employee or BoS (hence 37.5 hours), and will therefore require some convincing that you will continue to work 37.5 hours and, most likely, the hours of their choosing.

The proper way to work for multiple clients is to operate outside IR35 and ensure that your contracts are clearly B2B and then there's no misunderstanding that you're anything other than a gun for hire and will fulfill only the contractual terms.

[PCTNN]

Bumping up this old thread as I have the chance to take on another contract on a part time basis (2 days per week max). Still not sure if it's worth it or not for those extra 2 days so I may not even take it.

From what I've read there's nothing wrong with having 2 income streams; the main thing I need to consider is working hours. Now, the contract I already have (inside ir35 fwiw) doesn't clearly state the working hours but it just states 37.5 hours a week and then talks about "professional working day".

Is "professional working day" just another less clear way to say 9-5?

[northernladuk]

Seriously? You can't think about this for yourself?

LM has nailed it. It's a bit of a dumb question. Many people have two or more jobs. If the working times don't clash then why on earth do you need to ask the question?

[hobnob]

Income tax is a temporary problem: if you're overcharged, you can reclaim it in your SATR. (Still annoying, but you get the money eventually.)

I'm wondering about National Insurance: I believe it's charged per job, so you might be able to save money if you have 1 employer (umbrella). I.e. assuming that the income from your first contract is above the UEL, you'd be paying 2% on everything from the second contract (rather than 0% below the PT and 12% between PT and UEL).

[ladymuck]

It is very unlikely the working times will clash. It is BAU support after all.
I was thinking more along the lines of taxation. Do I have to use the same umbrella ? Do I get taxed twice etc.

You don't have to use the same umbrella but it would be better as otherwise you'll pay a heck of a lot more tax. Umbrella 1 will have your P45 so will deduct according to that but you'll be on emergency (week 1/month 1 rate) with umbrella 2. Also, with a single umbrella, you'd be able to deposit a greater proportion to a pension to save tax.

[Destiny2]

Seriously? You can't think about this for yourself?

If the clients are aware and happy with your availability, and your contracts don't exclude you from working with other clients then go for it.

If client B starts wanting you to attend planning meetings and standups at time that clash with the hours you've promised to client A but you've not agreed with client B that you start work later in the day what will you do?

It is very unlikely the working times will clash. It is BAU support after all.
I was thinking more along the lines of taxation. Do I have to use the same umbrella ? Do I get taxed twice etc.

[ladymuck]

Apologies for bumping up an old thread.
It seems to me the OP wants to do 9-5 for both clients.

What If I did two inside IR35 contracts ? ( Client A - 8-4 , Client B - 4-11 ) ?

Seriously? You can't think about this for yourself?

If the clients are aware and happy with your availability, and your contracts don't exclude you from working with other clients then go for it.

If client B starts wanting you to attend planning meetings and standups at time that clash with the hours you've promised to client A but you've not agreed with client B that you start work later in the day what will you do?

[Destiny2]

Apologies for bumping up an old thread.
It seems to me the OP wants to do 9-5 for both clients.

What If I did two inside IR35 contracts ? ( Client A - 8-4 , Client B - 4-11 ) ?

[northernladuk]

I can only speak from my experience. An inside determination I would say 50% of the time is related to a control the client wants to exert and 50% due to risk mitigation/corporate policy. I work with clients who have never allowed PSC's and those who only allow PAYE, just because a role is only offered PAYE it shouldn't be assumed that that indicates working practices.

Understood and you are quite correct but we are generally paid a day rate for a day of work. If the contract is deliverables based then away you go, but the number of contractors that have them are in the low single digits and I'd be willing to bet some of them are just a paperwork exercise and the client fully expects a full days work. To assume you can get away with doing half a days work because you think you can and not consider the agreement with the client is heading for trouble. If you have to hide it from the client then you are doing nothing more than ripping the client off.

[ComplianceLady]

I can only speak from my experience. An inside determination I would say 50% of the time is related to a control the client wants to exert and 50% due to risk mitigation/corporate policy. I work with clients who have never allowed PSC's and those who only allow PAYE, just because a role is only offered PAYE it shouldn't be assumed that that indicates working practices.

[northernladuk]

I understand that the mentality is often a bit optimism biased but saying that if someone is inside IR35 they have to work 9 - 5 isn't accurate. You can work on deliverables and be PAYE - it could be that the client doesn't want to engage PSC's, that personal service is required or something similar. If the contract allows you to work on other projects and you can make it work then you can. Tax status doesn't change that.

Where that might be true it's no where near reality on the ground. 99% of contracts are bums on seats and even more so if it's got an inside determination. There is little to no chance either of his contracts are either and he would need them both to be to pull this off.

It's just another contractor thinking they can pull two gigs off because they are at home out of both clients sight.

[Paralytic]

While that is true - how likely is that going to be in real life - if a company is recruiting someone that looks like an employee - they will expect them to look like an employee and be available on demand.

Often the people who are making the "no PSC" decision are far-removed (in organisational structure terms) from the person hiring the contractor. It's very possible that a hiring manager, who previous engaged contractors as a true suppliers, will still sees the contractor as exactly that, even if they're through an Umbrella.

I do get that many (perhaps most) hiring managers do just see contractors as quasi-employees, however.

[eek]

I understand that the mentality is often a bit optimism biased but saying that if someone is inside IR35 they have to work 9 - 5 isn't accurate. You can work on deliverables and be PAYE - it could be that the client doesn't want to engage PSC's, that personal service is required or something similar. If the contract allows you to work on other projects and you can make it work then you can. Tax status doesn't change that.

While that is true - how likely is that going to be in real life - if a company is recruiting someone that looks like an employee - they will expect them to look like an employee and be available on demand.