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Previously on "Can I do 2 Inside IR35 contracts at a time(1st with limited comp & 2nd with umbrella)"

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  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by ladymuck View Post

    Seriously? You can't think about this for yourself?
    LM has nailed it. It's a bit of a dumb question. Many people have two or more jobs. If the working times don't clash then why on earth do you need to ask the question?

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  • hobnob
    replied
    Income tax is a temporary problem: if you're overcharged, you can reclaim it in your SATR. (Still annoying, but you get the money eventually.)

    I'm wondering about National Insurance: I believe it's charged per job, so you might be able to save money if you have 1 employer (umbrella). I.e. assuming that the income from your first contract is above the UEL, you'd be paying 2% on everything from the second contract (rather than 0% below the PT and 12% between PT and UEL).

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  • ladymuck
    replied
    Originally posted by Destiny2 View Post

    It is very unlikely the working times will clash. It is BAU support after all.
    I was thinking more along the lines of taxation. Do I have to use the same umbrella ? Do I get taxed twice etc.
    You don't have to use the same umbrella but it would be better as otherwise you'll pay a heck of a lot more tax. Umbrella 1 will have your P45 so will deduct according to that but you'll be on emergency (week 1/month 1 rate) with umbrella 2. Also, with a single umbrella, you'd be able to deposit a greater proportion to a pension to save tax.

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  • Destiny2
    replied
    Originally posted by ladymuck View Post

    Seriously? You can't think about this for yourself?

    If the clients are aware and happy with your availability, and your contracts don't exclude you from working with other clients then go for it.

    If client B starts wanting you to attend planning meetings and standups at time that clash with the hours you've promised to client A but you've not agreed with client B that you start work later in the day what will you do?
    It is very unlikely the working times will clash. It is BAU support after all.
    I was thinking more along the lines of taxation. Do I have to use the same umbrella ? Do I get taxed twice etc.

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  • ladymuck
    replied
    Originally posted by Destiny2 View Post
    Apologies for bumping up an old thread.
    It seems to me the OP wants to do 9-5 for both clients.

    What If I did two inside IR35 contracts ? ( Client A - 8-4 , Client B - 4-11 ) ?
    Seriously? You can't think about this for yourself?

    If the clients are aware and happy with your availability, and your contracts don't exclude you from working with other clients then go for it.

    If client B starts wanting you to attend planning meetings and standups at time that clash with the hours you've promised to client A but you've not agreed with client B that you start work later in the day what will you do?

    Leave a comment:


  • Destiny2
    replied
    Apologies for bumping up an old thread.
    It seems to me the OP wants to do 9-5 for both clients.

    What If I did two inside IR35 contracts ? ( Client A - 8-4 , Client B - 4-11 ) ?

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  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by ComplianceLady View Post
    I can only speak from my experience. An inside determination I would say 50% of the time is related to a control the client wants to exert and 50% due to risk mitigation/corporate policy. I work with clients who have never allowed PSC's and those who only allow PAYE, just because a role is only offered PAYE it shouldn't be assumed that that indicates working practices.
    Understood and you are quite correct but we are generally paid a day rate for a day of work. If the contract is deliverables based then away you go, but the number of contractors that have them are in the low single digits and I'd be willing to bet some of them are just a paperwork exercise and the client fully expects a full days work. To assume you can get away with doing half a days work because you think you can and not consider the agreement with the client is heading for trouble. If you have to hide it from the client then you are doing nothing more than ripping the client off.

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  • ComplianceLady
    replied
    I can only speak from my experience. An inside determination I would say 50% of the time is related to a control the client wants to exert and 50% due to risk mitigation/corporate policy. I work with clients who have never allowed PSC's and those who only allow PAYE, just because a role is only offered PAYE it shouldn't be assumed that that indicates working practices.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by ComplianceLady View Post
    I understand that the mentality is often a bit optimism biased but saying that if someone is inside IR35 they have to work 9 - 5 isn't accurate. You can work on deliverables and be PAYE - it could be that the client doesn't want to engage PSC's, that personal service is required or something similar. If the contract allows you to work on other projects and you can make it work then you can. Tax status doesn't change that.
    Where that might be true it's no where near reality on the ground. 99% of contracts are bums on seats and even more so if it's got an inside determination. There is little to no chance either of his contracts are either and he would need them both to be to pull this off.

    It's just another contractor thinking they can pull two gigs off because they are at home out of both clients sight.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paralytic
    replied
    Originally posted by eek View Post

    While that is true - how likely is that going to be in real life - if a company is recruiting someone that looks like an employee - they will expect them to look like an employee and be available on demand.
    Often the people who are making the "no PSC" decision are far-removed (in organisational structure terms) from the person hiring the contractor. It's very possible that a hiring manager, who previous engaged contractors as a true suppliers, will still sees the contractor as exactly that, even if they're through an Umbrella.

    I do get that many (perhaps most) hiring managers do just see contractors as quasi-employees, however.

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  • eek
    replied
    Originally posted by ComplianceLady View Post
    I understand that the mentality is often a bit optimism biased but saying that if someone is inside IR35 they have to work 9 - 5 isn't accurate. You can work on deliverables and be PAYE - it could be that the client doesn't want to engage PSC's, that personal service is required or something similar. If the contract allows you to work on other projects and you can make it work then you can. Tax status doesn't change that.
    While that is true - how likely is that going to be in real life - if a company is recruiting someone that looks like an employee - they will expect them to look like an employee and be available on demand.

    Leave a comment:


  • ComplianceLady
    replied
    I understand that the mentality is often a bit optimism biased but saying that if someone is inside IR35 they have to work 9 - 5 isn't accurate. You can work on deliverables and be PAYE - it could be that the client doesn't want to engage PSC's, that personal service is required or something similar. If the contract allows you to work on other projects and you can make it work then you can. Tax status doesn't change that.

    Leave a comment:


  • ladymuck
    replied
    Talking of the whole 16 hour day thing, I remember having a 'discussion' with an agent about a requirement in the contract to work 40 hours a week for the client. I said that stipulation was effectively stopping me taking on other clients and defined working hours had no place in a B2B contract. His answer was, we don't care what you do with the rest of the hours in the week but you work for the client for 40.

    I then asked, will I be paid for 40 hours' work even if there isn't 40 hours work to do, as the contract states I have to work 40 hours a week. He said, no of course not, you're a contractor - you won't get paid if there's no work.



    This is the mentality that both agents and clients have. It is exceptionally difficult to get them into thinking correctly (although, it can and does happen - improbable is not the same as impossible).

    In that case, I had enough clout to get that term amended to something more amenable. I was helped by getting to 3pm on the Friday before the Monday I was due to start and saying, you do realise I've not signed the contract because of those clauses I don't like so won't be on site on Monday... t'was a gamble but fortunately it paid off.

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  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by Prab35 View Post
    my question is - can I do both inside IR35 contracts at a time ?
    Yes but no. Yes. Nothing wrong with having two income streams. Many people have two jobs, many companies have multiple clients. Just have to bugger around with the inside one and a bit of a messy year end but nothing your accountant can't sort out.

    And no. We've had a load of these recently for some reason and in every case it's someone eyeing up to DAILY rate contracts asking if they can do them both. The answer is no. Gigs are inside as they are treated like perm roles which will mean 9 to 5 at the client being told what to do when. No way can you do 16 hours in a working day and deliver to both clients. None of this, well I can finish that in half the time so I'll work on the other gig. You are inside so you are working 9 to 5, not on deliverables. If you finish two hours early you do something else for your client to fill the time. You won't be at either client long if you are doing someone elses work on their time. Ask both of them if they are OK you doing the other ones work during the day. I don't think you'll get a very positive response however much you kid yourself it's possible.

    Might sound great having double income but that usually comes with a downside of double work, particularly inside so use come common and don't get greedy else there is a good chance you could screw them both up.

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  • cojak
    replied
    It will depend on what both contracts say about working hours and if it’s ok to work for another company at the same time.

    And then it will depend on whether you can keep up with the work for both companies and keep them both happy.

    if both answers to that are ‘yes’ then it’s up to you if you do it or not.

    (It’s obviously not an ethical question for you and we aren’t your parents...)

    PS. Don’t be surprised to have HMRC turn up and ask you about why you suddenly started paying more tax after the 6th April, and why you weren’t paying that before.

    PPS. Check with your accountant. Working inside IR35 with your PSC will be a mess.

    Leave a comment:

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