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Previously on "Things about to get very serious and much more real? / Felicitas Letters"

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  • Monkeypower
    replied
    [QUOTE=eek;n4240130]WTT posted this on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/posts/graha...3302603778-BdQ


    Originally posted by MrO666 View Post
    Has anyone heard anything further regarding this shambles ?
    Nothing received as yet from W28 since their initial threatening letter , but still expecting something to come through, its a matter of time.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrO666
    replied
    Has anyone heard anything further regarding this shambles ?

    Leave a comment:


  • hudson
    replied
    Originally posted by MrO666 View Post
    So hang on here.........

    Elysium took money from people to get involved against Felicitas, and are now asking the same people they took money from for more money to now do the same thing against W28, even though the argument against W28 is exactly the same as it was against Felicitas ?

    Assuming that is correct, then I would tend agree that it's all starting to look highly suspicious. So people pay again, then W28 "sell" the rights on and then these same people ask for yet more money to do the same thing.

    Surely the work done around Felicitas is exactly the same argument against W28, so why does it require yet more money ?

    These group action things are all very good, but if none of them are ever actually getting finality then what's the point of them, they're worthless, as this whole merry go round will continue yet again. ? That's a question I'd like Elysium and whoever else to answer, although I doubt anyone will.

    So here's another one to ponder.........there were many more schemes in play out there than the ones which this bunch of muppets are trying to pursue, yet to the best of my knowledge no other scheme promoters have attempted to reclaim money. Now I'm sure it's not because other scheme promoters are lovely people and just don't want to, it's because they know there's no grounds to do so. If all other promoters thought they could easily rake in millions then I have no doubt at least some of them would have tried by now.......so why haven't they ?

    As others have stated before, the original trustees have to legally act with the best interests of the members in mind, and selling off any alleged "loan book" to a debt agency is quite clearly contrary to any notion of that, as in no way could it ever been seen as in the members best interests. In addition any "loan" book would need to have been sold for a figure representative to the book value, as again otherwise it's a fairly easy challenge (you don't sell a genuine £50m loan book for £1)......which again brings us onto the fact that if Felicitas bought the book for a substantial sum, then that money belongs to the trust members, not to the trustees.....where is it ?

    The whole thing from start to finish is pure swiss cheese, Felicitas knew it, W28 know it (remember they would need to prove everything was 100% legit and above board from the trustees all the way to them), that's why in my belief they will threaten (as Felicitas did), but they won't want to go anywhere near a court with this, as they know the odds would be heavily against them, and they would need to provide information to back up their case which I'm sure they would rather not have to explain.

    I hope everyone involved in this has made a SAR request to W28, make things difficult for them too, this isn't a game.

    So what exactly are Elysium proposing to do here ?
    Very good post.

    You have to remember that the professionals are incentivised by these attempts, without the crooks there would be no need for the police, medical firms would go out of business without illness.

    Webberg has responded to your post on his Linkedin (as pointed out by Greg) soon after you posted, glad to see he is still checking the forum.
    Last edited by hudson; 20 December 2022, 12:41.

    Leave a comment:


  • eek
    replied
    Originally posted by GregRickshaw View Post
    Partial, relevant part of post from Webber on LinkedIn today

    "At least 25 schemes have seen their loan books "assigned" to third parties. These include names such as Sanzar, Darwin, Infinity, Hyrax. K2, Winchester, Garraway. Here the new "owners" have tried to collect money by using (or abusing) a number of legal devices.

    There are groups extant defending against such claims. One of the problems they face is basically whack a mole. Action against one party starts, they engage, then disappear and move the book on. This means that although the legal argument remains the same, it has to begin again against a new party."

    Possibly what EL are trying to erase the whack a mole continuing.

    Subtext WTT are trying to offer the same....

    Here we go again comes to mind
    Subtext I think WTT and EL are working on this together. Whether I would spend money on their plan is a different matter.

    Leave a comment:


  • GregRickshaw
    replied
    Partial, relevant part of post from Webber on LinkedIn today

    "At least 25 schemes have seen their loan books "assigned" to third parties. These include names such as Sanzar, Darwin, Infinity, Hyrax. K2, Winchester, Garraway. Here the new "owners" have tried to collect money by using (or abusing) a number of legal devices.

    There are groups extant defending against such claims. One of the problems they face is basically whack a mole. Action against one party starts, they engage, then disappear and move the book on. This means that although the legal argument remains the same, it has to begin again against a new party."

    Possibly what EL are trying to erase the whack a mole continuing.

    Subtext WTT are trying to offer the same....

    Here we go again comes to mind

    Leave a comment:


  • DealorNoDeal
    replied
    Felicitas have already milked this scam dry. I can't understand why anyone else would waste time/money/effort trying to extract anything further from it.

    Perhaps Felicitas have conned W28 as to its potential?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrO666
    replied
    To your last point about Felicitas knowing a lot about the schemes, I completely agree...........but another way to look at it could be, seeing as they really did know so much, then they would have been in a perfect position to go to court if they thought they had a case.......but they didn't.

    As for other schemes, I know a number of people who were all using various schemes along the same lines as the ones we all know about Garraway, Sanzar, Darwin etc etc (I'm not adding the names of those schemes on here as I don't want to shake the tree), but who have never heard another word about it since they all stopped. We know that most of the schemes people being shaken down for now were all run by more or less the same bunch of people. That's what I'm saying, if things were really that straight forward, then why are promoters of other schemes not also jumping on the bandwagon ?

    As for not going after everyone, I agree. I've spoken to three people who didn't settle with Felicitas, and only one of them has had the W28 letter, so not sure what that's all about either.

    I would just like to see someone...anyone take this whole debacle to court and go from there.

    Leave a comment:


  • GregRickshaw
    replied
    Originally posted by MrO666 View Post
    So hang on here.........

    Elysium took money from people to get involved against Felicitas, and are now asking the same people they took money from for more money to now do the same thing against W28, even though the argument against W28 is exactly the same as it was against Felicitas ?

    Assuming that is correct, then I would tend agree that it's all starting to look highly suspicious. So people pay again, then W28 "sell" the rights on and then these same people ask for yet more money to do the same thing.

    Surely the work done around Felicitas is exactly the same argument against W28, so why does it require yet more money ?

    These group action things are all very good, but if none of them are ever actually getting finality then what's the point of them, they're worthless, as this whole merry go round will continue yet again. ? That's a question I'd like Elysium and whoever else to answer, although I doubt anyone will.

    So here's another one to ponder.........there were many more schemes in play out there than the ones which this bunch of muppets are trying to pursue, yet to the best of my knowledge no other scheme promoters have attempted to reclaim money. Now I'm sure it's not because other scheme promoters are lovely people and just don't want to, it's because they know there's no grounds to do so. If all other promoters thought they could easily rake in millions then I have no doubt at least some of them would have tried by now.......so why haven't they ?

    As others have stated before, the original trustees have to legally act with the best interests of the members in mind, and selling off any alleged "loan book" to a debt agency is quite clearly contrary to any notion of that, as in no way could it ever been seen as in the members best interests. In addition any "loan" book would need to have been sold for a figure representative to the book value, as again otherwise it's a fairly easy challenge (you don't sell a genuine £50m loan book for £1)......which again brings us onto the fact that if Felicitas bought the book for a substantial sum, then that money belongs to the trust members, not to the trustees.....where is it ?

    The whole thing from start to finish is pure swiss cheese, Felicitas knew it, W28 know it (remember they would need to prove everything was 100% legit and above board from the trustees all the way to them), that's why in my belief they will threaten (as Felicitas did), but they won't want to go anywhere near a court with this, as they know the odds would be heavily against them, and they would need to provide information to back up their case which I'm sure they would rather not have to explain.

    I hope everyone involved in this has made a SAR request to W28, make things difficult for them too, this isn't a game.

    So what exactly are Elysium proposing to do here ?
    Again another good post. So firstly, no secrets here I settled with Felicitas for a minimal amount, do I regret it? Yes with hindsight but at the time my health and my families mental health (unrelated) were totally shredded and I was in a very bad place (not just because of this) so with all things considered I felt I did the right thing. I also FWIW got it approved by my solicitor and F's solicitors.

    W28 have not come after me again and haven't come after all of the people involved they seem to have only gone after EL clients I could be wrong here, I do talk to a couple who did not settle and they haven't as yet been chased. They were not with EL so maybe they are only going after the ones involved with EL.

    As to your point about other schemes, Felicitas had a myriad of schemes they have come after, claiming they owned them all and could write them all off, all of the ones we have heard of in the past.... Garaway, Sanzar, Darwin, AML even Montpelier was in there... blah blah blah blah. Which should have been a red flag to be fair...

    They quickly had to drop Sanzar from the claims though.

    So I'm not sure about the 'others' 'out there' you mention. The interesting thing about other promoters etc., Sanzar did indeed seem to take care of us when HMRC overturned their scheme. They paid for barristers and for support through the settlement and arguments... it ended the same way however with a settlement and TTP it just cost us nothing.

    Felicitas didn't need to go near a court they frightened enough for it to be a good earner - it worked and sadly people like me probably paid for this next raid, as the people who paid TFL funded the Felicitas raid and so it goes on.

    However, having seen the documentation from Felicitas, they seem to know an awful lot about the schemes.



    Leave a comment:


  • MrO666
    replied
    So hang on here.........

    Elysium took money from people to get involved against Felicitas, and are now asking the same people they took money from for more money to now do the same thing against W28, even though the argument against W28 is exactly the same as it was against Felicitas ?

    Assuming that is correct, then I would tend agree that it's all starting to look highly suspicious. So people pay again, then W28 "sell" the rights on and then these same people ask for yet more money to do the same thing.

    Surely the work done around Felicitas is exactly the same argument against W28, so why does it require yet more money ?

    These group action things are all very good, but if none of them are ever actually getting finality then what's the point of them, they're worthless, as this whole merry go round will continue yet again. ? That's a question I'd like Elysium and whoever else to answer, although I doubt anyone will.

    So here's another one to ponder.........there were many more schemes in play out there than the ones which this bunch of muppets are trying to pursue, yet to the best of my knowledge no other scheme promoters have attempted to reclaim money. Now I'm sure it's not because other scheme promoters are lovely people and just don't want to, it's because they know there's no grounds to do so. If all other promoters thought they could easily rake in millions then I have no doubt at least some of them would have tried by now.......so why haven't they ?

    As others have stated before, the original trustees have to legally act with the best interests of the members in mind, and selling off any alleged "loan book" to a debt agency is quite clearly contrary to any notion of that, as in no way could it ever been seen as in the members best interests. In addition any "loan" book would need to have been sold for a figure representative to the book value, as again otherwise it's a fairly easy challenge (you don't sell a genuine £50m loan book for £1)......which again brings us onto the fact that if Felicitas bought the book for a substantial sum, then that money belongs to the trust members, not to the trustees.....where is it ?

    The whole thing from start to finish is pure swiss cheese, Felicitas knew it, W28 know it (remember they would need to prove everything was 100% legit and above board from the trustees all the way to them), that's why in my belief they will threaten (as Felicitas did), but they won't want to go anywhere near a court with this, as they know the odds would be heavily against them, and they would need to provide information to back up their case which I'm sure they would rather not have to explain.

    I hope everyone involved in this has made a SAR request to W28, make things difficult for them too, this isn't a game.

    So what exactly are Elysium proposing to do here ?

    Leave a comment:


  • happychap
    replied
    Originally posted by mro666 View Post
    whilst i won't pass comment on any of the outfits offering assistance, i do fully agree with the sentiment of the last couple of posts. People cannot keep continually paying into more and more "we'll help to defend this scam" schemes, as everyone knows that w28 will no doubt reassign things yet again to someone else down the line. Equally though, if "someone" did get all of these schemes declared invalid in court, then that would be the end of it.

    Out of interest, people who paid in when felicitas were making noises, are they now being asked to pay in again now that it's w28 ?
    yes we are!!!!!!!!

    Originally posted by mro666 View Post
    everyone knows this is a shakedown, and my own personal belief is that if felicitas genuinely thought they had even a small chance of proving these alleged loans were genuine and repayable, there's no way on earth that they would have walked away. If they could have proven things in court then they would have been in line for millions.............so why didn't they ?
    totally agree !!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrO666
    replied
    Whilst I won't pass comment on any of the outfits offering assistance, I do fully agree with the sentiment of the last couple of posts. People cannot keep continually paying into more and more "we'll help to defend this scam" schemes, as everyone knows that W28 will no doubt reassign things yet again to someone else down the line. Equally though, if "someone" did get all of these schemes declared invalid in court, then that would be the end of it.

    Out of interest, people who paid in when Felicitas were making noises, are they now being asked to pay in again now that it's W28 ?

    Everyone knows this is a shakedown, and my own personal belief is that if Felicitas genuinely thought they had even a small chance of proving these alleged loans were genuine and repayable, there's no way on earth that they would have walked away. If they could have proven things in court then they would have been in line for millions.............so why didn't they ?

    Leave a comment:


  • GregRickshaw
    replied
    Originally posted by happychap View Post

    This sounds all great support most lilkey costing us another few thousand pounds to jump on the band wagon - my concern is the statement they make that they feel they have a strong case, we heard this all before from QCs about the schemes in the first place being Tax efficent.... a cynical person might thing this is a scam within a scam, Felicitas and W28 feeding buinsess to Elysium and others.

    When will it all end?

    Most of us have paid HMRC, some of us have paid Felicitas, some have paid for their own lawyer support but it's never ending.......now we have to pay Elysium

    Example

    worked for 1yrs earned £100K, paid my scheme provider 6%, paid the Income Tax now on all monies, paid felicitas 1%, now im going to pay Elysium 2% and if it goes to court and the loans are valid meaning I pay back the £100K. - What a terrible year that was

    My last comment - should we just sit back and se if the current people paying Elysium win and W28 goes away saving us some cash?
    Great post and 100% agree with this.

    This cycle of doom goes on and on and the only ones making money are the lawyers and 'experts' yet we are seeing more and more how these groups are failing to deliver.

    I am not sure how EL could ever guarantee someone won't come with a new case. The question I have asked many times is how did these companies get the details of these loans, I think we all know how this began and points again towards your cycle of doom.

    Good post

    Leave a comment:


  • happychap
    replied
    Originally posted by p1clw View Post
    Hi guys

    Just to clarify things here if I may

    Elysium are instructed on behalf of their clients to pursue a declaration of unenforceability from the court regarding the purported loans, as part of their instructions they will deal with W28 and should they issue any claims in the meantime, Elysium will represent their clients for the same fee in defense of that

    happy to clarify further if required, send a pm if you like

    This sounds all great support most lilkey costing us another few thousand pounds to jump on the band wagon - my concern is the statement they make that they feel they have a strong case, we heard this all before from QCs about the schemes in the first place being Tax efficent.... a cynical person might thing this is a scam within a scam, Felicitas and W28 feeding buinsess to Elysium and others.

    When will it all end?

    Most of us have paid HMRC, some of us have paid Felicitas, some have paid for their own lawyer support but it's never ending.......now we have to pay Elysium

    Example

    worked for 1yrs earned £100K, paid my scheme provider 6%, paid the Income Tax now on all monies, paid felicitas 1%, now im going to pay Elysium 2% and if it goes to court and the loans are valid meaning I pay back the £100K. - What a terrible year that was

    My last comment - should we just sit back and se if the current people paying Elysium win and W28 goes away saving us some cash?

    Leave a comment:


  • p1clw
    replied
    Originally posted by GregRickshaw View Post
    Did you read Caroline's article properly? Or even between the lines? As long as you know what you have signed up to fund. EL want to get funding not to defend these claims but to launch an attack on this new bunch all of us involved would love to see that happen just as long as you realise what EL are doing.
    Hi guys

    Just to clarify things here if I may

    Elysium are instructed on behalf of their clients to pursue a declaration of unenforceability from the court regarding the purported loans, as part of their instructions they will deal with W28 and should they issue any claims in the meantime, Elysium will represent their clients for the same fee in defense of that

    happy to clarify further if required, send a pm if you like


    Leave a comment:


  • MrO666
    replied
    This is all a bit unusual, as I can't see anyone in their right mind agreeing to pay back 50% anything if they were not willing to pay Felicitas 5% (or less). Not sure whether this is just a tactic for them to try and come back round for reduced figures (exactly as Felicitas did) or what.

    One things for certain, most people won't be paying anything until a judge orders them to do so. As we know, that takes money on behalf of the claimant to bring a case like that, and also carries a fair degree of risk, because if they were to loose (and from what I've heard and seen so far, nobody including legal minds think they would win) then the whole house of cards collapses at their expense.

    I'm fully expecting that they will try and make some type of claim, no doubt through a very low budget legal outfit (like Gladstones), as why else would they spend money sending letters when they could just have emailed people like last time. As others have said, I would just dispute each and every claim or letter in writing, and keep evidence of doing so.

    Something else that someone said to me last week, was what happens if the people that are being chased have moved home in the preceding 10+ years and the contact details that this crowd have are no longer valid (so they don't know they're being chased). I don't know what happens then, although I'd be very surprised if this new bunch of chancers invested the time and money to track people down.

    Also, for anyone that received a letter from W28, I would urge you to submit a SAR. Two reasons for this, one, it shows you exactly what information they have, and two, SAR's are a royal pain the arse for a company to legally have to respond to in the allotted timeframe, so this will cost them time and possibly money too.
    Last edited by MrO666; 8 December 2022, 10:52.

    Leave a comment:

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