Reply to: Update on JCB's pursuit of Hydrogen as their fuel of the future

[malvolio]

Only in terms that they are both a gas, hydrogens low weight and density are problematic. When a flight line tech we were constantly topping up the emergency O2 bottles and that's 8 times the size of hydrogen.

Gases - Densities (engineeringtoolbox.com)

I did say similar. Temperatures are a lot different as well for example.

Another key factor is you can make H2 fairly simply, given clean water and electricity, compared to the fairly robust industrial production and other hardware needed to get LPG to a point where you can use it.

[Gibbon]

Lack of hydrogen filling stations would be a goo limitation. That said, my motorhome has a refillable LPG tank and that is fairly similar in terms of storage and handling

Only in terms that they are both a gas, hydrogens low weight and density are problematic. When a flight line tech we were constantly topping up the emergency O2 bottles and that's 8 times the size of hydrogen.

Gases - Densities (engineeringtoolbox.com)

[d000hg]

There is, but it's very low level from burning stuff in the air taken into the engine, and probably negligible in the real world.

As in crud in the air? Or non-O2 gaseous components getting involved in the reaction (nitrides/nitrates, etc?)

[Zigenare]

There is, but it's very low level from burning stuff in the air taken into the engine, and probably negligible in the real world.

Did you miss the part in the original post where the "lean" burn keeps the temperature below the threshold where emissions are created? Thus the only output from the process is dry steam.

[malvolio]

There's no emissions burning hydrogen either, technically

There is, but it's very low level from burning stuff in the air taken into the engine, and probably negligible in the real world.

[d000hg]

That's one car. Sometime in the not so distant future there will be 3 or 4 outside a house.

Maybe houses will be limited to one charging outlet

Ok, you've an interview 175 miles from home, the interview lasts for an hour and you have to drive 175 miles home. Which car would you drive?

That is an edge case. One coming idea is that for atypical journeys you would rent a vehicle suited to that task. I don't daily drive (or own) a van because twice a year I need to buy things that I can't fit in the car.

A fuel cell is a catalysed reaction between hydrogen and oxygen (from the air) resulting in electricity and water. No burning required. No emissions created. A point that seems to be totally lost in the argument...

There's no emissions burning hydrogen either, technically

[malvolio]

All the previous discussion seemed to be about hydrogen for ICEs, and I'd forgotten about fuel cells.

I don't know much about fuel cells but presumably there's a reason why they're not currently in widespread use?

Lack of hydrogen filling stations would be a goo limitation. That said, my motorhome has a refillable LPG tank and that is fairly similar in terms of storage and handling

[Zigenare]

All the previous discussion seemed to be about hydrogen for ICEs, and I'd forgotten about fuel cells.

I don't know much about fuel cells but presumably there's a reason why they're not currently in widespread use?

Very expensive technology and lack of investment in alternative fuels.

[DealorNoDeal]

A fuel cell is a catalysed reaction between hydrogen and oxygen (from the air) resulting in electricity and water. No burning required. No emissions created. A point that seems to be totally lost in the argument...

All the previous discussion seemed to be about hydrogen for ICEs, and I'd forgotten about fuel cells.

I don't know much about fuel cells but presumably there's a reason why they're not currently in widespread use?

[Hairlocks]

People who don't make money from it would disagree with your headline...
https://www.imeche.org/news/news-art...-to-55-by-2025

And we've got plenty of energy...
https://news.sky.com/story/six-milli...eport-12624000

I suppose that depends on your interpretation of "The Grid".

The Transmission network is able to cope although will probably improvements.

The electric generation is currently a problem. With the lack of gas storage not helping. There are currently 32 million cars in use in the UK, it is going to take a long, long time for them to be replaced with EVs.

Whether is it batteries or hydrogen, the UK needs a lot more generation. Just less if they are batteries, and more of the infrastructure is there already.

[WTFH]

Looks like he bought a car that didn't fit his requirements. Sadly Tesla would probably be the only EV option. It will direct you to a supercharger if needed without needing to think about it.

That's great, Elon, but for me the nearest supercharger is either 30 miles west on 65 miles east of where I am. The network does not exist, and given the mental instability of the owner of Tesla, who knows when he might pull the plug.

[Hairlocks]

This is the very reason my neighbour binned his electric Porsche for a petrol one. Frequently had meeting >150 miles away and constantly struggled to get it charged for the journey home.

Looks like he bought a car that didn't fit his requirements. Sadly Tesla would probably be the only EV option. It will direct you to a supercharger if needed without needing to think about it.

[Zigenare]

That's obvious...

You own 2 electric cars.

Put one on a trailer and tow it for 100 miles. Then abandon the first car with its flat battery at a charging point. Take the second car (sans trailer) to the interview. By the time you get back to the charging point the first one might be charged enough to tow the second one home.

On a more serious note, it would be interesting to know how many contractors would not go near an electric car if it didn't have the BiK savings, which the government will have to drop soon, as they'll need the revenue when everyone switches over.

100 miles towing a trailer laden with a car? You'll be lucky, electric vehicles aren't very efficient when it comes to towing. John Cadogan(Australian motoring journalist) has made a few youtube videos about electric vehicles and towing...

[malvolio]

Electric seems like the best way to me. Burning tulip, even if it is clean like hydrogen, is not an efficient way of producing mechanical power.

I expect battery technology will evolve rapidly, and packs capable of doing many hundreds of miles will get a lot smaller and lighter.

Also, charging electric cars is a pretty good way of using off-peak electricity.

A fuel cell is a catalysed reaction between hydrogen and oxygen (from the air) resulting in electricity and water. No burning required. No emissions created. A point that seems to be totally lost in the argument...

[WTFH]

Ok, you've an interview 175 miles from home, the interview lasts for an hour and you have to drive 175 miles home. Which car would you drive?

That's obvious...

You own 2 electric cars.

Put one on a trailer and tow it for 100 miles. Then abandon the first car with its flat battery at a charging point. Take the second car (sans trailer) to the interview. By the time you get back to the charging point the first one might be charged enough to tow the second one home.

On a more serious note, it would be interesting to know how many contractors would not go near an electric car if it didn't have the BiK savings, which the government will have to drop soon, as they'll need the revenue when everyone switches over.