Reply to: Some action on illegal working

[vetran]

The mistake you are making is thinking that these people are employable.

You would be surprised who can be saved when you show them the way. Timpsons do sterling work:

https://www.timpson-group.co.uk/timp...ing-academies/

Dissuade them from lazing and show them a future you will be rewarded.

Or alternatively wake em up early and keep them busy then watch the crime fall. Throw in drug tests for the addicts.

A friend in my teens worked for a builder with religious connections who let him sign on every Thursday, If he had to log on every day he wouldn't have been claiming, same for his little brother a boy of travelling persuasion (not actually Irish) who specialised in laying tarmac, getting his woman pregnant and claiming JSA.

If they are in a zoom meeting all day every day their illegal work would suffer. Its a cheap and easy way to throw a spanner in the illegal economy.

[SueEllen]

I have had friends declare after investigation that they actually would get more on benefits. They had turned down prospective jobs on this basis.

If I ruled the world then benefit claimants would be required to attend a Teams/zoom meeting every day with the camera on. They can teach them interview skills from 8am to 6pm, this stops them enjoying a funded life of idleness, committing petty crime, abusing Alcohol/drugs or claiming and working cash in hand.

here you go migration cuts wages and affects existing poor migrants in the country most.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.u...f-immigration/

The mistake you are making is thinking that these people are employable.

[vetran]

I meant the gov. Finding them, raiding, holding, re-patirating, fraud of the system you name it.

ah good point

[northernladuk]

you can't imagine their employers are particularly good at health & safety etc.

I meant the gov. Finding them, raiding, holding, re-patirating, fraud of the system you name it.

[vetran]

You realise this article is nearly 10 years old, based on data that's even older?

I do, are you suggesting the general thrust is wrong and now even those on burger chain wages are self funding and with wage stagnation the sums are slightly less worrying?

Most companies do top customer and margin analysis, apparently governments don't.

Some people study Machiavelli he is still spot on.

[Snooky]

and finally

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ent-state.html




so any jobs paying below top 40% earners aren't actually on average paying more in than they are taking out.

You realise this article is nearly 10 years old, based on data that's even older?

[vetran]

And that's just lost taxes. Imagine the costs of managing these people.

you can't imagine their employers are particularly good at health & safety etc.

[vetran]

and finally

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ent-state.html

You have to get to the top 40 per cent before you can claim to be a net contributor. Households in the fourth quintile pay £4,113 more in tax than they take out, while the top 20 per cent of earners pay a whopping £20,125 more in than they get back.
The UK tax and spend is designed to be 'progressive', with those at the bottom get more from the state than those at the top, but the CPS say that the trend has accelerated in the last decade.

In 2000/01 the middle quintile of earners paid in 5.9 per cent more in taxes than they received back in value from the state. Ten years on and the middle quintile gets back 20 per cent more than they put in.

so any jobs paying below top 40% earners aren't actually on average paying more in than they are taking out.

[northernladuk]

its part of the estimated £10 billion underpayments

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ax_evasion.pdf

And that's just lost taxes. Imagine the costs of managing these people.

[vetran]

I would have to agree pretty much on the 2nd point although there is an argument if they work for under the minimum wage, that does mean 'legals' can't get the jobs... but I don't know this is a big effect in reality (doubt it).

On the first point, if a system offers you a free ride why wouldn't you take it? Especially if the only work available is crap and doesn't end up helping your bottom line with everything considered. We don't work as contractors for the common good but for our personal gain.

I have had friends declare after investigation that they actually would get more on benefits. They had turned down prospective jobs on this basis.

If I ruled the world then benefit claimants would be required to attend a Teams/zoom meeting every day with the camera on. They can teach them interview skills from 8am to 6pm, this stops them enjoying a funded life of idleness, committing petty crime, abusing Alcohol/drugs or claiming and working cash in hand.

here you go migration cuts wages and affects existing poor migrants in the country most.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.u...f-immigration/

The MAC (2018) estimated that an increase in the number of EU migrants corresponding to 1% of the UK-born working-age population resulted in a 0.8% decrease in UK-born wages at the 5th and 10th percentiles (i.e. people in the bottom 5-10% of earners), and a 0.6% increase at the 90th percentile (i.e. high earners). In practice, this means that between 1993 and 2017, the total effect of EU migration on the wages of UK-born workers was estimated to be a 4.9% reduction in wages for those at the 10th earnings percentile, a 1.6% reduction at the 25th percentile, a 1.6% increase at the 50th percentile, and a 4.4% increase at the 90th percentile. The calculation of the total impact should be interpreted with caution, however, because the model estimates the short-run response to migration, which is expected to disappear over time (MAC, 2018: 32).

Finally, research suggests that any adverse wage effects of immigration are likely to be greatest for resident workers who are themselves migrants. This is because the skills of new migrants are likely to be closer substitutes for the skills of migrants already employed in the UK than for those of UK-born workers. Manacorda, Manning and Wadsworth (2012) analyse data from 1975-2005 and conclude that the main impact of increased immigration is on the wages of migrants already in the UK.

[Snooky]

these people aren't taking these jobs away from people who want them at the low wage the employer would prefer to pay

The levels of pay you're talking about are almost certainly dodgy cash-in-hand, no questions asked, no tax paid on either side gigs. Otherwise they'd be paying minimum wage at least and, if nobody would take the job at that wage, they'd have to pay more.

As long as some people are available to work on a shady cash-in-hand basis, coping with a lower wage because there are no deductions, there's no incentive for an employer to pay a wage in a legal way that a permanent resident paying income taxes might be able to survive on.

You mention about people "who despite access to free healthcare, education etc. still prefer to put their hands out" but, as far as I'm concerned, anyone taking part in a cash-in-hand arrangement is doing exactly that; expecting all the benefits of being part of a community while not doing their bit to fund those benefits.

[d000hg]

I certainly admire it a lot more than those who despite access to free healthcare, education etc. still prefer to put their hands out.

Illegal workers are a problem but lets face facts - these people aren't taking these jobs away from people who want them. My problem with illegal workers is the people who exploit them.

I would have to agree pretty much on the 2nd point although there is an argument if they work for under the minimum wage, that does mean 'legals' can't get the jobs... but I don't know this is a big effect in reality (doubt it).

On the first point, if a system offers you a free ride why wouldn't you take it? Especially if the only work available is crap and doesn't end up helping your bottom line with everything considered. We don't work as contractors for the common good but for our personal gain.

[vetran]

I'll bet the taxes collected from pop up car washes and their 'employees' is a big fat zero so even though you put 'generally' at the beginning it's very difficult to argue that is true at all. We can only gather stats on those we know about that are in proper jobs. We have no idea whats going outside of that and anecdotal evidence tells us the tax payers are the tip of a very lopsided iceberg.

They are also two of the most corrupt countries in Europe and a majority of those coming are from the lower end of the economic scale to the concept that working and paying tax is the done thing will be completely alien to them.

Do workers from these two countries have a +ve effect to the Uk economy? It's very hard to believe they do.

its part of the estimated £10 billion underpayments

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ax_evasion.pdf

The tax gap for 2011-12 is estimated at £35 billion a year – this is the difference between the amount of tax that should in theory be collected, against what is actually collected. Tax evasion and the hidden economy make up around £10.5 billion of that figure – around 30 per cent of the tax gap.

[vetran]

Your title says "illegal immigration" but the story is about working illegally, two very different things.

The UK allegedly is struggling to get people to fill vacancies, yet at the same time the migrants who are waiting to be processed by the government's failing processing scheme (which doesn't get enough attention), those migrants are not allowed to work.

People may have legally entered the UK on a legal visa, and that visa has expired. That does not make them illegal immigrants. That makes them people who have outstayed their visa. Given that the government chooses not track people with visas to know when they leave, then who knows how many are still here.

Blimey there is a whole field of horses and they are all facing away from me while they talk.


illegal
/ɪˈliːɡl/
adjective

1. contrary to or forbidden by law, especially criminal law.

If you come using a visa but lie about your purpose then that invalidates the Visa.

So if you come on a visitors visa but your purpose is to do work that is prohibited, then your visa is void your actions are contrary to immigration law. This is clearly stated on the visa application in most countries.

If you overstay your visa then your visa is no longer valid and you are therefore here illegally.

The home office even describe it as a crime i.e. something illegal.

https://www.amsallegations.homeoffic...me=Lf62UB7cz4C

Ah yes the UK is struggling to get people to fill vacancies at minimum wage and with dreadful conditions however there are plenty of people on zero hour contracts who would welcome regular work. Flooding the market with cheap labour is not really going to help. We are recovering from B'liar & co doing that with the accession countries 2004 onwards , seems you want to let in any person who got here illegally.

I don't want to be a sous chef on £12 an hour in central London strangely few people do. Care workers are now seeing £15 an hour like Lidl & Aldi.

[TheDude]

I'll bet the taxes collected from pop up car washes and their 'employees' is a big fat zero

I'll bet it is not zero but way South of where it should be.