Reply to: Contracting role offer - but now IR35 being repealed...

[vetran]

anywhere that employs you couldn't afford me pal

[sadkingbilly]

hey if I said a bunch of feckwits it would include you.

anywhere that employs you couldn't afford me pal

[vetran]

the ironing

hey if I said a bunch of feckwits it would include you.

[sadkingbilly]

sorry missed the sarcasm tag, dealing a bunch of numpties at work today. Grrrrr

the ironing

[eek]

sorry missed the sarcasm tag, dealing a bunch of numpties at work today. Grrrrr

You didn't miss it - this is general so I assumed people would take my sarcasm as read.

In reality were I to use that flowchart for the general public it would be a bit clearer than that and more focussed on working practices than magic phrases.

The biggest issue going forward probably isn't IR35 it's going to be not being caught by the MSC legislation...

[vetran]

The flow chart is meant as a joke - but based on a couple of conversations yesterday HMRC really aren't happy about Friday's changes because Chapter 8 investigations are beyond painful for them...

The other thing I'm hearing is that agencies are starting to realise that April is going to be a complete mare for them as people seek outside work...

I really wouldn't be surprised if HMRC are pressurised into giving reassurances that April 2023 inside to outside contracts get a free pass...

sorry missed the sarcasm tag, dealing a bunch of numpties at work today. Grrrrr

[WTFH]

Like you said previously, clients will pay around market rates for a role. Market rates are obviously determined by supply/demand. If the majority of contractors in that market segment post April are prepared to accept lower rates as they can go outside IR35, then obviously the supply curve has shifted to a lower price, in which case market rates will decrease. This was effectively what I said to you in my previous reply and hence is logically sound. Therefore, I ask you, "I'm not sure what your problem is with reading comprehension"....

You seem to be struggling with the idea of contracting. On 7th April next year, not every contractor in the UK will have their contract up for renewal. It's not like a permanent job where you get a review each year. Contracts are up when contracts are up. New contracts get negotiated at the appropriate time for that new contract.
So, if you want to hold off on taking a contract until rates go up, go for it. If you've got a warchest that will hold out, and you're happy, then do it.
Your original post, and several of your comments on this thread have been about how you want to demand more money from end clients now based on something that might happen in the future, shows that you're probably some sort of data analyst who doesn't function in the real world.
A client will offer a role at a given rate based on the current market. They don't offer a rate today based on future market changes.
And clients will not suddenly offer £100 per day more (or £100 per day less) for all contracts just because it's gone from FY23 to FY24 (unless the government introduces a rule that directly affects the client)

[northernladuk]

Thank you for your well reasoned response. It's a possibility after April then that clients reduce their rates for the same jobs as contractors can now go outside IR35 so they would be prepared to accept those lower rates, in which case market rates would fall.

How much experience have you had in the contracting market to be making such assumption? Are you trying to apply basic economics to a complex situation? We've been through quite a few of these changes and such assumptions never held true.

For a start the supply and demand you base all this on isn't really what you think and doesn't drive the price like it would in a clear cut supply and demand..

But either way, do you really understand contracting enough to be making these guesess. Your posts indiciate not.

[eek]

Nice recommending burying your head and hoping HMRC don't knock is your advice considering your dismissive attitude.

Now if you recommended a contract review & if possible insurance then if HMRC come calling they get a legal letter telling to go forth that should make you look less like an easy target and hopefully less worth pursuing. HMRC are short on capacity but they are quite willing to expend considerable amounts of our money if they smell blood.

The flow chart is meant as a joke - but based on a couple of conversations yesterday HMRC really aren't happy about Friday's changes because Chapter 8 investigations are beyond painful for them...

The other thing I'm hearing is that agencies are starting to realise that April is going to be a complete mare for them as people seek outside work...

I really wouldn't be surprised if HMRC are pressurised into giving reassurances that April 2023 inside to outside contracts get a free pass...

[eek]

This is what happens when newbies post in the wrong forum...

The one thing we are clearly seeing is an arrogant poster who is accidently revealing

• a lack of reading comprehension skills
• any understanding of how markets work
• an unwillingness to do research while expecting everything to be given to him on a plate

[cojak]

This is what happens when newbies post in the wrong forum...

[Inspired]

I'm not sure what your problem is with reading comprehension, we're trying to tell you that clients will pay what they need to pay to get the quality of people to deliver the work. They don't care about you personally, or how much you'd like.
If they can get someone with 20 years successful contracting experience for £800 a day, why would they pay someone with 1 year's contracting experience £1,000 a day?
They will pay what it takes.
If there are 10 contractors up for a role, which one is the best fit in terms of experience, availability, cost, etc? The client isn't interviewing people and saying "so, how much of your daily rate will you spend on your mortgage and how much will you put in a pension?"

If you're so concerned about what may or may not happen to rates in the future, then contracting is not for you. Contracting is about taking roles that may last a couple of months or maybe a year, then getting another role that does the same. Each time working on delivering results. Each time accepting the risk that the next contract might take a few months to turn up. If you're thinking that April 2023 is a negotiation point for your rate today, you need to wait until April to secure your contract. Don't risk it now or you might be getting low-balled. Or maybe do risk it now cause the rate might drop.
If you don't want to take the risk, you're not going to last long as a contractor.

Like you said previously, clients will pay around market rates for a role. Market rates are obviously determined by supply/demand. If the majority of contractors in that market segment post April are prepared to accept lower rates as they can go outside IR35, then obviously the supply curve has shifted to a lower price, in which case market rates will decrease. This was effectively what I said to you in my previous reply and hence is logically sound. Therefore, I ask you, "I'm not sure what your problem is with reading comprehension"....

[vetran]

Because you both don't appear to listen to other people's posts nor to be willing to do any research. The simple fact is the market works as WTFH describes AND provided you follow some simple pieces of advice it's very unlikely HMRC will come calling.

And even if they did come calling you simply need to throw the problem at the tax specialists you pay monthly and the issue is 99% of the time going to disappear into the too much hassle box...

As for how HMRC will view things come April 6th - I posted this last week - nothing I've heard from HMRC changes my viewpoint...

Nice recommending burying your head and hoping HMRC don't knock is your advice considering your dismissive attitude.

Now if you recommended a contract review & if possible insurance then if HMRC come calling they get a legal letter telling to go forth that should make you look less like an easy target and hopefully less worth pursuing. HMRC are short on capacity but they are quite willing to expend considerable amounts of our money if they smell blood.

[WTFH]

Thank you for your well reasoned response. It's a possibility after April then that clients reduce their rates for the same jobs as contractors can now go outside IR35 so they would be prepared to accept those lower rates, in which case market rates would fall.

I'm not sure what your problem is with reading comprehension, we're trying to tell you that clients will pay what they need to pay to get the quality of people to deliver the work. They don't care about you personally, or how much you'd like.
If they can get someone with 20 years successful contracting experience for £800 a day, why would they pay someone with 1 year's contracting experience £1,000 a day?
They will pay what it takes.
If there are 10 contractors up for a role, which one is the best fit in terms of experience, availability, cost, etc? The client isn't interviewing people and saying "so, how much of your daily rate will you spend on your mortgage and how much will you put in a pension?"

If you're so concerned about what may or may not happen to rates in the future, then contracting is not for you. Contracting is about taking roles that may last a couple of months or maybe a year, then getting another role that does the same. Each time working on delivering results. Each time accepting the risk that the next contract might take a few months to turn up. If you're thinking that April 2023 is a negotiation point for your rate today, you need to wait until April to secure your contract. Don't risk it now or you might be getting low-balled. Or maybe do risk it now cause the rate might drop.
If you don't want to take the risk, you're not going to last long as a contractor.

[eek]

Added risk from having a large tax bill from HRMC if they deemed my outside IR35 role to be inside (assuming after April I started an outside IR35 contract). Added paperwork from setting up a limited company and doing the book keeping/getting an accountant. Though I am a newbie to contracting so have much to learn.

Not sure why my post irked you so much, seems like you're having a bad day haha

Because you both don't appear to listen to other people's posts nor to be willing to do any research. The simple fact is the market works as WTFH describes AND provided you follow some simple pieces of advice it's very unlikely HMRC will come calling.

And even if they did come calling you simply need to throw the problem at the tax specialists you pay monthly and the issue is 99% of the time going to disappear into the too much hassle box...

As for how HMRC will view things come April 6th - I posted this last week - nothing I've heard from HMRC changes my viewpoint...