Reply to: Whoopsi

[vetran]

I'm by no means an apologist for Carr, but in context it sounded a bit to me like he's saying "people don't get exercised about the gypsy victims due to their innate dislike of gypsies", but presenting it in his usual style of it being his point of view, when you know that it most certainly isn't.

At one of his tours in Germany he was talking about the church tax they have to pay there. "Not me", came a voice from the back "I'm Jewish". Carr sarcastically replied "Oh, I didn't know there were any Jews left in Germany".

Dead silence.

Then another voice came. "Ja, we missed one".

Carr was stunned and speechless. Out-Carred if you will.

Very funny man, but a too sweary and too close to the edge of decency. Occasionally, as on this time, stepping over it.

Saw him in the flesh do a recording of 8 of 10 cats at Pinewood - very funny but the minute they stopped the cameras he turned into a complete potty mouth, as did the rest of the panel. It was like being on an Irish building site, every other word banned on here.

Some Germans have a cracking sense of humour, I trained a couple of guys on some legacy systems and we laughed for two days solid.

[NotAllThere]

FFS.

How low can you go?

I'm by no means an apologist for Carr, but in context it sounded a bit to me like he's saying "people don't get exercised about the gypsy victims due to their innate dislike of gypsies", but presenting it in his usual style of it being his point of view, when you know that it most certainly isn't.

At one of his tours in Germany he was talking about the church tax they have to pay there. "Not me", came a voice from the back "I'm Jewish". Carr sarcastically replied "Oh, I didn't know there were any Jews left in Germany".

Dead silence.

Then another voice came. "Ja, we missed one".

Carr was stunned and speechless. Out-Carred if you will.

Very funny man, but a too sweary and too close to the edge of decency. Occasionally, as on this time, stepping over it.

[SueEllen]

It'll be gone soon, watch now if you dare!

I can find stuff from the 70s if I want to watch racist material.

[d000hg]

It'll be gone soon, watch now if you dare!

[SueEllen]

FFS.

How low can you go?

[d000hg]

I suppose I don't think one comment off the cuff should be the only thing we end up talking about, especially given she apologized, if other points were raised. It's very easy to say something dumb live.
Also, I'm ok with someone holding a view I don't agree with.

Any way we probably covered Whoopi... And now for the other end of the spectrum:

Comedian Jimmy Carr has sparked outrage for a routine about the Holocaust in his latest Netflix stand-up special.
Carr has been described as "truly disturbing" for making light of the murders of hundreds of thousands of people from Europe's traveller communities during World War Two.

The Holocaust Memorial Day Trust said it was "absolutely appalled".

Netflix, which has been urged to remove the special, declined to comment. Carr has also not commented.

Carr's programme, titled His Dark Material, was released on the streaming platform on Christmas Day, and he introduced part of his routine as being "a career ender".

The comedian went on to say a "positive" of the Holocaust was that thousands of gypsies were murdered. The comments were greeted with applause and laughter.

[northernladuk]

If she hadn't done the whole "they're all white" gaffe I'd have a lot of sympathy with her against the baying hordes, as it is I'm - as I opened with - torn.

You make some fair points and it's your opinion so agreeing to disagree is the best way as you say. I must admit I can't see why you are torn when the 'they're all white' comment is out there though. One element of the issue is open to strong debate, no right or wrong... but they are all white is clearly wrong. No justification for that whether she was right or not about the other bit. If someone delivers a great solid speech and then says 'all black people look the same to me' do you think people will be torn? Same comment has to be held to the same level of account whatever colour you put in it. Just can't say that nowadays IMO

[d000hg]

Making a distinction between antisemitism and racism isn't helpful. They're both bloody awful things.

I shall have to disagree, though on the wider point of course you're correct. My question was from academic curiosity rather than because one is 'better' or 'worse' but I think it's important we know what the terms we throw around ever more frequently mean, and that they're used correctly. If you had cancer markers in your blood you wouldn't say "let's not find out if it's lung or bowel, they're both awful prognoses". How you respond and treat evil can be targeted when you know more clearly what it is. Is a man treating a black lesbian terribly because she's black, female or gay? I would say that distinction is not unimportant.

And legally there may be different ramifications to acting based on racial Vs religious Vs whatever. Holocaust denial is of course illegal in some countries and some people seem to be pointing fingers in that direction at Whoopi.

If she hadn't done the whole "they're all white" gaffe I'd have a lot of sympathy with her against the baying hordes, as it is I'm - as I opened with - torn.

[NotAllThere]

Etymologically speaking, anti-semitic could also be applied to "ethnic Muslims" - i.e. ones that can trace their ancestry back to Abram/Ishmael, since they are also descendents of Shem.

It could be, but that's not its origin. The term first appeared in print in 1879 (in German) and described those people who are against the phenomenom of "Semitism" (a term the antisemites themselves coined) - which was about the encroachment of Jewish culture on German society. They formed the League of Antisemites and claimed that their ideas were different from previous forms of anti-Jewish sentiment. As Hayes (2017) explains, antisemites claimed to be against a phenomenon they themselves invented, ‘Semitism’. They specifically targetted only Jews, not other Semitic people.

Anti Jewish was things like "Christ killers". Antisemitism is things like ZOG, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc.

[NotAllThere]

Whoopi muddies the waters by implying it can't be racist if both groups are white.

According to racists, Jews aren't white. According to anti-racists, Jews are white. They can't win. David Baddiel wrote "Jews don't count" about such issues, where often at best, racism against Jews isn't seen as important as racism against ... what is it now? ... oh yes, people of colour. Worth a read.

Making a distinction between antisemitism and racism isn't helpful. They're both bloody awful things.

A Jewish friend of mine (I didn't realise she was Jewish until she told me about this incident), was recently very upset to find that someone had sprayed "No Jews In Switzerland" on a bridge in her home town. This is what she said:

When faced with this kind of blatant antisemitism, it‘s not about me personally. On the contrary, everything that makes me - my deeds, ideals, motivations, political agendas and even my spiritual practice fade away, become nothing. The only thing remaining is my Jewish ancestry which usually doesn‘t define me much. But suddenly it‘s the only thing that matters. This is deeply scary and very disturbing.

I'm pretty sure that when someone is reduced similarly, based on the colour of their skin, they feel pretty much the same.

Racism or antisemitism? Who cares! Both are equally vile.

[David71]

I'm a Christian father to 3 Jewish children because my wife, their mother, is Jewish. I've lived in Israel for many years and while my wife is completely secular (as were her parents), my brother-in-law is an Orthodox settler living in the West Bank, we're good friends and I've been welcomed in his Shul when visiting. One of my favourite photos of my eldest daughter is of her sitting in the lap of her great grandfather who was a holocaust (and later a gulag) survivor - staying alive and making babies is the biggest f'you to any Nazi / holocaust denier.
All of this is just to 'prove' I've got some idea when I say, 'Is Judaism a race or religion' is a question even Jews can't agree on and argue about!
To get back on track, most Jewish people I've been listening to and Jewish blogs I've been reading agree that Whoopi is NOT an anti-Semite and just probably needs to have a bit of a 'strong' think about how she uses her words and how (probably & hopefully unintentionally) what she said WAS insensitive and more than a little insulting.
FYI: a Christian with a Jewish maternal Grandmother in Nazi Germany would have been in the ovens, it wasn't just based on a persons religion but on their heritage; if you interested there are 'scientific charts' detailing how it was decided if a person was a Jew, a 'mongrel' or an aryan; what some people find weird (but is isn't if you really think about it) is that the State Of Israel used the Nuremburg Laws when deciding who would qualify for the Right of Return to Israel - you'd be surprised how many 'Christians' have the right to emigrate and settle in Israel based on a Jewish (maternal) Great Grannie that no-one can hardly remember.
Sorry for the long post!

[Gibbon]

I'm certain they do but there should be a name for that genetic group for their race, not the more religious term Jew which would make it simpler. Maybe a bad example but could be like calling Vikings a race which it clearly isn't for the same reasons but it's accepted they aren't where as with Jews it's a lot more grey. It's a strange world the more you dig in to it. Black and white move to grey the more you read up. All very interesting stuff.

Like a lot of strange things it was probably to do with the Romans. They gave them a dispensation from oaths to the emperor as it involved the emperors divinity on earth, in return they had to pay a extra tax and they weren't allowed to convert others. They recognised them as a separate ethnicity with their own religion.

[northernladuk]

Genetic studies on all those groups have linked them back to the same ancient population originating in the Middle East.

So it goes...

I'm certain they do but there should be a name for that genetic group for their race, not the more religious term Jew which would make it simpler. Maybe a bad example but could be like calling Vikings a race which it clearly isn't for the same reasons but it's accepted they aren't where as with Jews it's a lot more grey. It's a strange world the more you dig in to it. Black and white move to grey the more you read up. All very interesting stuff.

[La Petite Valse]

I don't think that is true is it. There are black jews, indian jews etc. They are definitely a 'group' but I am not sure anyone has definitely said they are a race. People

Genetic studies on all those groups have linked them back to the same ancient population originating in the Middle East.

So it goes...

[SueEllen]

but were they black, white or Jewish?

They are ethnically Jewish so regarded as black Jews.