Reply to: That ole devil called Lucifer

[vetran]

I disagree. Let's have a survey. Children in need is coming up, lets count how many of the countless people doing lots of good mention are inspired by any religion.

I didn't say everyone who was charitable was religious, just that those that are charitable & religious find their religion helps them be more charitable.

[Gibbon]

I definitely do, granted a small sample size of a few hundred people but among those I've met who actually follow their faith rather than simply ticking the "Christian" box on forms there's a marked difference. And not only that, but a marked difference in individuals before/after they have changed their faith, Dr. House insists "people don't change" but that's not my experience.

Normally I'd be cynical of surveys but when it comes to religion, but what people do with their money really does tell you a lot about them. It's one of the hardest things to change, it seems.
Anecdotally, there are a lot of 'secular' charities run by religious people - I think all the grassroots charities and community groups I know locally were started by such (though there's a bias there) and a lot of charities seem to have a disproportionate number of religious people. I wonder if there is enough data out there to test such theories?

Comic Relief is the "Christmas and Easter church services" of charity though, when people give once a year. I'd say that's a bad dataset?

You may well have a point with the founders of the local charities that you mention, but unless people give they're meaningless. The last 18 months have been hard for the can rattlers though, but I can't bring myself to set up DDs for the plethora I usually give to if I see them out and about. I have a few DDs for various, and anyone reading my posts can pretty well guess, and I do have one set up for the the canal trust but that is self interest as I use them nearly everyday (walking).

I don't think though most giving is directly religiously inspired, but more culturally.

[d000hg]

Agree with your disagree. Expect there's already a survey out there somewhere, can't be a*d to Google. From personal experience it's all about personality, most are nice people, some are uncaring or even dishonest. Never saw any real correlation with beliefs.

I definitely do, granted a small sample size of a few hundred people but among those I've met who actually follow their faith rather than simply ticking the "Christian" box on forms there's a marked difference. And not only that, but a marked difference in individuals before/after they have changed their faith, Dr. House insists "people don't change" but that's not my experience.

Normally I'd be cynical of surveys but when it comes to religion, but what people do with their money really does tell you a lot about them. It's one of the hardest things to change, it seems.
Anecdotally, there are a lot of 'secular' charities run by religious people - I think all the grassroots charities and community groups I know locally were started by such (though there's a bias there) and a lot of charities seem to have a disproportionate number of religious people. I wonder if there is enough data out there to test such theories?

Comic Relief is the "Christmas and Easter church services" of charity though, when people give once a year. I'd say that's a bad dataset?

[Gibbon]

Charity wasn't even exclusive to religion as seen here:

The Origin of Christian Charity (sciencedirectassets.com)

So, during the five centuries of the ancient era there was the institutionalization of Christian charity, which was strongly influenced by Jewish tradition (the Old Testament) and social practices of the Greco-Roman society. Christian charity is a synthesis of different beginnings, but in the end, the product of an ancient civilization that with some modifications is still used in the modern world

[xoggoth]

Agree with your disagree. Expect there's already a survey out there somewhere, can't be a*d to Google. From personal experience it's all about personality, most are nice people, some are uncaring or even dishonest. Never saw any real correlation with beliefs.

[Gibbon]

I think on the whole religion does improve behaviour. look at food banks, feeding of the poor at temple or a mosque. Missionaries, the scouts etc or Medecine sans frontiers its all driven by belief in God.

I think Power makes behaviour worse see the pervy priests.

If it were easy we would have fixed it centuries ago.

I disagree. Let's have a survey. Children in need is coming up, lets count how many of the countless people doing lots of good mention are inspired by any religion.

[vetran]

I don't think religion improves human behaviour, look at all the atrocities carried out in the name of religion, or the abuse by Catholic priests etc. On the other hand, I don't think it is any more of a problem than other beliefs. Look at all the major wars in the last 100 years or the deaths under Communism. Human nature, lust for power, conflicting ideas, makes no difference what they are based on.

Some are so anti religious they seem almost devout in their beliefs.

I think on the whole religion does improve behaviour. look at food banks, feeding of the poor at temple or a mosque. Missionaries, the scouts etc or Medecine sans frontiers its all driven by belief in God.

I think Power makes behaviour worse see the pervy priests.

If it were easy we would have fixed it centuries ago.

[xoggoth]

stone me, with all the misplaced/defective [ quote ] and [ /quote ] it's difficult to read that lot

Some remarkably deep exchanges there but, like you, I'm a lazy old fart who can't be bothered to read it all.

[xoggoth]

I don't think religion improves human behaviour, look at all the atrocities carried out in the name of religion, or the abuse by Catholic priests etc. On the other hand, I don't think it is any more of a problem than other beliefs. Look at all the major wars in the last 100 years or the deaths under Communism. Human nature, lust for power, conflicting ideas, makes no difference what they are based on.

Some are so anti religious they seem almost devout in their beliefs.

[DoctorStrangelove]

stone me, with all the misplaced/defective [ quote ] and [ /quote ] it's difficult to read that lot.

[Gibbon]

Ah now that is a question, which comes first the cross or humanity? After millennia of slavery and evolving Christianity Wilberforce and others put this country into hock and on a war footing to stop it, I would say it is doubtful that would have happened without religion. It also required society to evolve so that slavery was no longer seen as attractive or as necessary as it would have been in St Paul's day. We moved away from capital punishment because of a similar set of people. Neither would have been possible 2000 years ago.

Ahh, now we get interesting. Nothing in that Christos or Moses says is anti-slavery, there is no cop-out, it was in abundance when they were on Earth. 'Evolving Christianity' is one of the most enlightened expressions to have appeared on this board, now you're thinking. Yes Wilberforce et al were informed by their religion, I have no doubt about that; but they went beyond and I would argue that was their humanity writ large that gave them the strength to push against the prevailing ideas of the day, also ensconced in religion, to achieve something truly great, the freeing of their brother man.

[vetran]

You believe or think? Are good people good because they believe in God or are bad people bad because they believe in God. Or are there good people of whom a subset believe in God and vice versa. There are plenty of good people in the world that don't believe in god.

Was Wilberforce against slavery because of Religion, or was it his common humanity, to split the two is impossible in a Christian society. St Paul, without whom Christianity would have remained a Jewish sect, had no problem with slavery.

"Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a bondservant or is free. Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him." - Ephesians 6:5-9

"Bondservants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. 25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.

Masters, treat your bondservants justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven." - Colossians 3:2

I believe God doesn't exist but many of the people I have met doing tremendous amounts of good in the world worshipped God, the framework & direction religion gives them seems to amplify their efforts therefore I believe (a stronger position than think) that faith in a God can make many people better than they would be on their own. I am happy to congratulate that.

Plenty of people who believe in God are bad people, I get into trouble when I call them nutters as they have no regard for humanity. I would say this of the crusaders and their opponents , Torquemada, Hitler or the Modern Islam abusing terrorists and dictators.

Ah now that is a question, which comes first the cross or humanity? After millennia of slavery and evolving Christianity Wilberforce and others put this country into hock and on a war footing to stop it, I would say it is doubtful that would have happened without religion. It also required society to evolve so that slavery was no longer seen as attractive or as necessary as it would have been in St Paul's day. We moved away from capital punishment because of a similar set of people. Neither would have been possible 2000 years ago.

[Gibbon]

Why would your belief in God make a difference though?

The longer I go on, the less attractive this who argument becomes TBH. When you're young and vitriolic you think you're the first one to have whatever views you have. People who disagree are clearly just ill-educated/stupid. Then you look around and find people like Gibbon who are more widely read than you with the opposing view (whichever it is). Look further and you'll find people more educated than Gibbon who disagree with him... and so on. The Hitchens brothers spring to mind.
The fact there are renowned names who have spent decades studying all this who find no contradiction in the Bible, and others equally distinguished who find lots, makes me realise this isn't something you can reason out. It's fun when you're young but these days seems like mental masturbation to me to be having the same arguments over and over. I could be doing something useful like digging the garden.

For some people finding a belief in God does help I will happily concede this. My fundamental argument isn't whether there is a god or gods, that is pointless and unprovable as you quite rightly say. My 'axe' so to speak is that the current 'descriptions' of a God don't fit and that is my main contention. The Abrahamic faiths in particular lock humanity into physical and, until recently, mainly intellectual straight jackets and have hampered progress.

[d000hg]

You believe or think? Are good people good because they believe in God or are bad people bad because they believe in God. Or are there good people of whom a subset believe in God and vice versa. There are plenty of good people in the world that don't believe in god.

Why would your belief in God make a difference though?

The longer I go on, the less attractive this who argument becomes TBH. When you're young and vitriolic you think you're the first one to have whatever views you have. People who disagree are clearly just ill-educated/stupid. Then you look around and find people like Gibbon who are more widely read than you with the opposing view (whichever it is). Look further and you'll find people more educated than Gibbon who disagree with him... and so on. The Hitchens brothers spring to mind.
The fact there are renowned names who have spent decades studying all this who find no contradiction in the Bible, and others equally distinguished who find lots, makes me realise this isn't something you can reason out. It's fun when you're young but these days seems like mental masturbation to me to be having the same arguments over and over. I could be doing something useful like digging the garden.

[Gibbon]

I can believe good people who believe in God can be an asset to civilisation because there is evidence to prove that.

You believe or think? Are good people good because they believe in God or are bad people bad because they believe in God. Or are there good people of whom a subset believe in God and vice versa. There are plenty of good people in the world that don't believe in god.

Was Wilberforce against slavery because of Religion, or was it his common humanity, to split the two is impossible in a Christian society. St Paul, without whom Christianity would have remained a Jewish sect, had no problem with slavery.

"Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a bondservant or is free. Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him." - Ephesians 6:5-9

"Bondservants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. 25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.

Masters, treat your bondservants justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven." - Colossians 3:2