Reply to: Beginner BUSINESS ANALYST .....with added questions!

[Bexter]

That's where the naivety shows. IF I get the interview I usually get the gig. But what if the agent follows the moden trend of string searching the CV rather than actually reading it and binning every one that doesn't have all the right keywords in it? You can't sell yourself to anyone if you can't get to the hirer, and that's the same in any industry; CVs are being filtered at the wrong point with the wrong criteria these days.

Can't argue with you there, I'm not a fan of agents, particularly ones who seem to have no understanding whatsoever of IB's!

I have a few colleagues I've worked with previously in other areas that I've tried to help get into IB directly, because agents have refused to help them, even though I know they are much more capable than a lot of people I know.

I had delusions of starting my own recruitment business once, but then I did a bit of research on it and decided perhaps not!

[malvolio]

Anyway, this isn't really the point, just something I'm interested in cause I don't think its that hard getting into IB if you know your stuff and can prove it

That's where the naivety shows. IF I get the interview I usually get the gig. But what if the agent follows the moden trend of string searching the CV rather than actually reading it and binning every one that doesn't have all the right keywords in it? You can't sell yourself to anyone if you can't get to the hirer, and that's the same in any industry; CVs are being filtered at the wrong point with the wrong criteria these days.

[BentheBA]

So which tit gave me negative rep and commented 'unhelpful' on my post. Pointing out someone has completely missed the mark on IR35 is the most helpful advice this guy can get. What isn't unhelpful is letting him blunder on with the wrong idea of IR35 and make even bigger mistakes...

Fookin rep system is a pain in the ass when the old heads don't bother with it anymore and newbies are happy to give negative rep to some hard feedback they don't like to hear

Just for info it wasnt this newbie, I found your comments useful (even if the presentation was a little negative)

[Bexter]

Well there you go. You don't understand the wider market, but aren't about to listen to someone who does. All the current work is in Finance with very little going on elsewhere. If you are not currently working for a banking or insurance client, who for some reason are still paying rates like the credit crunch never happened (and I wonder where they got the money to do that from?) then you have a problem.

I accept your point, you are right I am naive in this respect as I have only ever worked in Finance for IB's so I don't know what the rest of the market is like.

However, having said that, every skill I have that I sell myself on, I believe is the same as most BA's either in IB or not. Also, if the market is that bad on your side, why not be adaptable and move into IB. As you say, there are tons of jobs over here, paying silly money, so surely the smart guy works his way in.

I'll accept that it can be hard to get into, but from my experience if you're good, you'll get the job even if you don't have IB experience. 6 months ago I was still permie at another IB and hiring big time, and I can't even get across the amount of absolute rubbish the agency sent us, in terms of not even being able to string a sentence together and expecting £450 a day. So at that point I would have taken anyone, with any experience, as long as they came across as capable and could do what I was asking,
Anyway, this isn't really the point, just something I'm interested in cause I don't think its that hard getting into IB if you know your stuff and can prove it.

Going back to OP's point, cause obviously it ain't gonna help you if you're in Leeds to say just go IB, but in terms of general BA skillset, I'm still new at this, so I think there's probably better people on here to comment, but mainly I would say it comes down to your attitude and ability to communicate in terms of getting the job in the first place. I do a lot of requirement gathering, document writing, presenting of information blah blah blah and I work really hard to influence people, get them on my side, and win project buy in from people. Once you've got that, you can blag the rest

Obviously though, I still have a lot to learn, I am but a young paduan.

[northernladuk]

Don't fret about it Dear, it don't mean that much...

I feel unloved, under valued and useless.... and it don't help when people make me feel the same on here lol

[cojak]

Don't fret about it Dear, it don't mean that much...

[northernladuk]

Absolutely not. Couldn't be any wider of the mark if you tried. IR35 is about your working conditions with the client. Are you controlled (hidden permie) or can you deliver a service as a ltd. I suggest you read the link at the right as you have got this very wrong.
Yes. That is generally what contracting is about. As you seem to not have a grasp on IR35 am not sure what you are giong to get asking this question at this time.
This depends on personal cirumstances and your IR35 status so just asking this question isn't any use to you really. Need to read up on both, understand them apply the one that counts to your situation.
You are best placed to answer this as people in roles won't be watching the job sites. Spend some time searching job sites over the next week or so and you should have a better answer


You get your head down, widen your shoulders, put up, shut up and invoice invoice invoice.

Hope this helps but can't see how some of these questions are really going to help you to be honest. You didn't understand IR35 and some of them are about individual situations so you don't know if they will apply to you until you start picking and applying for roles.

So which tit gave me negative rep and commented 'unhelpful' on my post. Pointing out someone has completely missed the mark on IR35 is the most helpful advice this guy can get. What isn't unhelpful is letting him blunder on with the wrong idea of IR35 and make even bigger mistakes...

Fookin rep system is a pain in the ass when the old heads don't bother with it anymore and newbies are happy to give negative rep to some hard feedback they don't like to hear

[cojak]

Business Analysis is a big role and you can do a whole range of work in it. Process mapping, data analysis, requirements gathering, strategy planning all come under the remit of 'BA' - it just depends how experienced you are and where your interest (and the money) lies.

If you're not sure what I mean in the above, take a look at ISEB certification.

Getting into IB work is tricky, but people pine too much for it in my view. Yes there are always jobs floating around when everything else is dead (as it was earlier this year), but I know of people wanting to get out of IB world as well in order to get a good breadth of experience.

[NotAllThere]

Sorry, BA at an IB is not being in the real world how?

IB is a niche sector. Outside of IB, aka "the real world", you'll find things are rather different.

Real world in this sense means outside of your parochial bubble. hth

Get over yourself and the whole "contractors are special" thing

Go over to General, and you'll find some very "special" contractors...

[Scrag Meister]

Come to that, investment banking is an even more isolated case, since IB's only ever take on contractors who are currently workling in an IB. It's not my perspective that skewed.

Obviously not true as I got into IB from a non IB background. I suppose if the choice was IB v NON-IB then yes they would go experienced rather than not, but then that is the case in all arenas, not just IB.

[d000hg]

Further to which, a BA who can't be arsed to do some fairly obvious basic research isn't going to find a lot of work as a contractor...

HTH

Get over yourself and the whole "contractors are special" thing

[malvolio]

Sorry, BA at an IB is not being in the real world how?


I think you'll find probably about average in terms of usefulness compared to some of the replies on here

Well there you go. You don't understand the wider market, but aren't about to listen to someone who does. All the current work is in Finance with very little going on elsewhere. If you are not currently working for a banking or insurance client, who for some reason are still paying rates like the credit crunch never happened (and I wonder where they got the money to do that from?) then you have a problem. Come to that, investment banking is an even more isolated case, since IB's only ever take on contractors who are currently workling in an IB. It's not my perspective that skewed.

In reality there is very little work and what there is is paying 25% down on two years ago. Plus swathes of UK contractors are losing thir jobs to our Indian cousins coming in under highly interesting interpretations of the ICT rules.


As for IR35 I was contracting before it came in and I am one of those who have spent the last eleven years trying to get rid of it. So if you don't mind I think I'll trust my informed opinion on its applicability to 90% of the freelance workforce above yours. If you're convinced you would be inside IR35 if you were working as a proper contractor then (a) you're probably wrong and (b) you haven't learned anything about what a contractor is so are probably much safer as an employee of a brolly where you can't get hurt.

None of which will help the OP at all of course. Which is where we came in.

[BentheBA]

Bexter, thank you for responding!!! I was beginning to question my own sanity! Your response was great.

Im thinking that there is no right answer to ir35 so aslong as the contract is reviewed prior to agreeing it (and I have read everything about it on the internet as suggested ) then I guess it goes someway to mitigating complications.

I was planning on going down the ltd route myself but I have noticed a lot of BAs going down the umbrella route. Im going to give ltd a go as I think, if I commit to it long term, it will be more useful.

Im guessing there is a lot of demand in the IB market for BAs in London? Im based in Leeds at the moment so having looked at the job boards there doesnt seem to be as much demand for BAs over the last two or three weeks, so its difficult to gauge. Out of interest whats the typical skillset required for IB BA's?

Do you have any tips or advice you could share in relation to being a contract BA and adjusting from permie BA to contractor? What do you think as been the biggest adjustment?

In relation to the more negative posters, its clear there are some experienced contractors on this forum who provide the "harsh reality" view which I guess isnt a bad thing as even the comments that appear critical can be useful. Thankfully we can choose which advice is useful and which isnt, to be fair all the comments so far on this thread have been useful in some way.

Really appreciate your response.

[Bexter]

Sigh...

Out in the real world, it's a lot tougher.

Sorry, BA at an IB is not being in the real world how?

So no value in your comments then...

I think you'll find probably about average in terms of usefulness compared to some of the replies on here

If you're through an umbrella, IR35 is not even a consideration, it simply doesn't apply. But the tests for IR35 are well known and well understood, as can be seen by the vast majority of failed IR35 investigations and there is absolutely no justification for anyone thinking they are IR35-caught, especially if - as I assume a BA is - they have a fair amount of latitude in how they deliver their work.

I genuinely believe that the majority of people who think they are outside of IR35 are kidding themselves. I look at what I do and in my last contract for example, there was a permie there who did exactly the same job I did, there was no differentiation in the way we were treated at all. So if we're talking in terms of 'reality of working practices' I was definately inside IR35 (for other reasons as well, not just this). Whether HMRC are capable enough of proving that is a different matter all together! And this is why I assume so many people continue to work through ltd companies unaffected.

Guilty, but I haven't forgotten else I wouldn't keep trying to answer questions. However I - and others - do get a little tired of answering the same ones, esepcially when the answers are well documented or even can be found in the stickies at the top of the board.

If you get that bored of answering the same questions, how about try not replying, and do something else instead? People genuinely come here for help, cause in some cases, like me, I was baffled and couldn't find anyone to speak to that could answer my specific questions. I will conceed that some are capable of using search better than others, but still, if you can't be bothered to answer, don't, but yet most still do! (not necessarily meaning 'you' specifically)

Just be aware that yours is apparently form a very atypical position and may not therefore be the best advice for a newbie.

Well I was a newbie BA not so long ago, so I kind of thought it might be useful. Lets let the OP decide....have I scared him away?

[malvolio]

Sigh...

While you are not wrong, you are also not typical. Allow me to elucidate:

First of all, hi there! I myself am a new contractor working as a BA at a large IB.

There you go. Closed market, highly specialised, very incestuous. Damn all use to anyone who isn't in an IB

Job Market - I'm turning down offers left right and centre. First gig I took, I didn't enjoy it at all, wasn't what I expected, got a new contract within 48 hours and am now really, really enjoying this one. So, don't worry about their not being any jobs, as long as you have a good CV with transferrable skills.

As above. Transferable skills within a given vertical. No idea where the OP works, but if it isn't an IB or something very close to it, they will never get a job in one as a contractor. Out in the real world, it's a lot tougher.

IR35 - I admittedly still do not understand this completely, hence why I am still with an umbrella. I'd like to do the ltd thing (which some people on this forum will convince you you're not capable of doing no matter what!), but I'm still not sure.

So no value in your comments then...

From my point of view, ignoring my 'IR35 complaint' contract from my agency, the role I'm doing in reality of the working practices, appears to me, to make me a disguised employee, therefore I'm not keen on taking the risk. However, there is a LOT more research you can do on this area and yes it definately depends on your personal situation so nobody can really advise you here.

If you're through an umbrella, IR35 is not even a consideration, it simply doesn't apply. But the tests for IR35 are well known and well understood, as can be seen by the vast majority of failed IR35 investigations and there is absolutely no justification for anyone thinking they are IR35-caught, especially if - as I assume a BA is - they have a fair amount of latitude in how they deliver their work. However if anyone is thinking about going to a Ltd then they absolutely do have to understand the rules, plus a lot of other things as well. Which comes back to reading and asking intelligent questions

I think a lot of people on here have been contractors for a long time and know exactly what they're doing, but its easy to forget how hard it can be when starting out for the first time - especially when your only experience is of comfortable, easy permiville.

Guilty, but I haven't forgotten else I wouldn't keep trying to answer questions. However I - and others - do get a little tired of answering the same ones, esepcially when the answers are well documented or even can be found in the stickies at the top of the board.

Now...I await the flaming for being naive and stupid and no doubt someone will find something ridiculous I may have once said in a post a long time ago, and then repost it, just to illustrate their point that I'm not worth listening to....

I'm not flaming anyone and never have. You have a viewpoint, just like I do. Just be aware that yours is apparently form a very atypical position and may not therefore be the best advice for a newbie.